Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Expanding the Language

 1 

Tinvaakonik
February 23, 2018

Obviously, as it exists in the canon, Dovahzul is incomplete as a language, lacking many grammatical features, as well as a rich lexicon. This is, of course, understandable, given the context, but perhaps a problem for those of us with a passion for conlangs and lore. How does the community approach this?  Is there an effort to expand the language, adding words, affixes, and grammatical features to fill in the missing pieces? Or would such an endevour be pointless, as a working, non canonical Dovahzul wouldn't be "true" Dovahzul? 

by Tinvaakonik
February 23, 2018

Obviously, as it exists in the canon, Dovahzul is incomplete as a language, lacking many grammatical features, as well as a rich lexicon. This is, of course, understandable, given the context, but perhaps a problem for those of us with a passion for conlangs and lore. How does the community approach this?  Is there an effort to expand the language, adding words, affixes, and grammatical features to fill in the missing pieces? Or would such an endevour be pointless, as a working, non canonical Dovahzul wouldn't be "true" Dovahzul? 


Fronlaasfrin
February 23, 2018

Long ago, there was a dictionary on here called the Legacy dictionary. it's still here, just go to the Language area, and then Legacy dictionary, but anyways, that is where fan-made words were put. sadly, it is no longer supported...

by Fronlaasfrin
February 23, 2018

Long ago, there was a dictionary on here called the Legacy dictionary. it's still here, just go to the Language area, and then Legacy dictionary, but anyways, that is where fan-made words were put. sadly, it is no longer supported...


Zinrahzul
February 23, 2018
In my opinion, because Bethesda never developed it enough to be used in everyday situations by Ancient Nords, our usage of the limited Canon vocabulary is sort of like our dialect of Dovahzul.

As far as expansion goes, this site has decided to focus on the original pieces of framework given, even though a limited amount of context had been given to help us expand.

The Legacy Dictionary was becoming simple word for word replacements that weren't relying on how those words might be naturally introduced into the language.

Also, no one has had the time to organize such a great effort, which would require a lot of effort, time, and compensation...
by Zinrahzul
February 23, 2018
In my opinion, because Bethesda never developed it enough to be used in everyday situations by Ancient Nords, our usage of the limited Canon vocabulary is sort of like our dialect of Dovahzul.



As far as expansion goes, this site has decided to focus on the original pieces of framework given, even though a limited amount of context had been given to help us expand.



The Legacy Dictionary was becoming simple word for word replacements that weren't relying on how those words might be naturally introduced into the language.



Also, no one has had the time to organize such a great effort, which would require a lot of effort, time, and compensation...

Tinvaakonik
February 23, 2018
Zinrahzul
The Legacy Dictionary was becoming simple word for word replacements that weren't relying on how those words might be naturally introduced into the language. Also, no one has had the time to organize such a great effort, which would require a lot of effort, time, and compensation...

I don't think it should be abandoned. Obviously some contributers will have insufficient knowledge of linguistics to create meaningful contributions to the language, but perhaps some sort of quality control could help with that. Maybe a voting system, where contributions need to meet a certain threshold or are deleted, or a team of moderators with experience in linguistics and knowledge of the lore. Dovahzul is such a ripe opportunity for the creation of an amazing, functional fictional language, I'd hate to see it left in it's current, barebones state.

by Tinvaakonik
February 23, 2018
Zinrahzul
The Legacy Dictionary was becoming simple word for word replacements that weren't relying on how those words might be naturally introduced into the language. Also, no one has had the time to organize such a great effort, which would require a lot of effort, time, and compensation...

I don't think it should be abandoned. Obviously some contributers will have insufficient knowledge of linguistics to create meaningful contributions to the language, but perhaps some sort of quality control could help with that. Maybe a voting system, where contributions need to meet a certain threshold or are deleted, or a team of moderators with experience in linguistics and knowledge of the lore. Dovahzul is such a ripe opportunity for the creation of an amazing, functional fictional language, I'd hate to see it left in it's current, barebones state.


Liis
Administrator
February 23, 2018
It has been somewhat discussed how we would go about expanding the dictionary, if we ever decide to again. The prevailing idea is one you mentioned: a team of know-hows to carefully implement words that coincide with the canon lexicon.
As mentioned, our focus right now (and for a long while) is to see what all translations and ideas that canon vocabulary is able to convey.
by Liis
February 23, 2018
It has been somewhat discussed how we would go about expanding the dictionary, if we ever decide to again. The prevailing idea is one you mentioned: a team of know-hows to carefully implement words that coincide with the canon lexicon.

As mentioned, our focus right now (and for a long while) is to see what all translations and ideas that canon vocabulary is able to convey.

Hahdremro
February 26, 2018
Tinvaakonik

I don't think it should be abandoned. Obviously some contributers will have insufficient knowledge of linguistics to create meaningful contributions to the language, but perhaps some sort of quality control could help with that. Maybe a voting system, where contributions need to meet a certain threshold or are deleted, or a team of moderators with experience in linguistics and knowledge of the lore. Dovahzul is such a ripe opportunity for the creation of an amazing, functional fictional language, I'd hate to see it left in it's current, barebones state.

A voting system would be fantastic in theory, but I think new words would have to be added by experienced linguists. That's just not something I'd trust to the public.

Some Legacy words seem to fit the phenomes and patterns set up by the canon lexicon, so I would be okay with reintroducing some Legacy words once we've fully explored canon Dovahzul. Some words, like "what," are imperative for conversational language, and yet they are lacking in the canon dictionary. I'd say that a bare minimum of words should be added to make it possible to have a full conversation. After that, we can add words that would simplify some concepts. (A dedicated word for water would be better than luvsestrun, which is a bit too abstract for my liking.)

The important thing is to strive for keeping the same level of creativity required to understand and speak Dovahzul. Right now, it takes a fair bit of mental gymnastics to create sentences that don't have direct word-for-word translations, which is the appeal of the language for me. The whole reason we switched away from Legacy was to avoid making Dovahzul just another word-for-word language. Whatever we do with the language going forward, we need to avoid repeating that.

by Hahdremro
February 26, 2018
Tinvaakonik

I don't think it should be abandoned. Obviously some contributers will have insufficient knowledge of linguistics to create meaningful contributions to the language, but perhaps some sort of quality control could help with that. Maybe a voting system, where contributions need to meet a certain threshold or are deleted, or a team of moderators with experience in linguistics and knowledge of the lore. Dovahzul is such a ripe opportunity for the creation of an amazing, functional fictional language, I'd hate to see it left in it's current, barebones state.

A voting system would be fantastic in theory, but I think new words would have to be added by experienced linguists. That's just not something I'd trust to the public.

Some Legacy words seem to fit the phenomes and patterns set up by the canon lexicon, so I would be okay with reintroducing some Legacy words once we've fully explored canon Dovahzul. Some words, like "what," are imperative for conversational language, and yet they are lacking in the canon dictionary. I'd say that a bare minimum of words should be added to make it possible to have a full conversation. After that, we can add words that would simplify some concepts. (A dedicated word for water would be better than luvsestrun, which is a bit too abstract for my liking.)

The important thing is to strive for keeping the same level of creativity required to understand and speak Dovahzul. Right now, it takes a fair bit of mental gymnastics to create sentences that don't have direct word-for-word translations, which is the appeal of the language for me. The whole reason we switched away from Legacy was to avoid making Dovahzul just another word-for-word language. Whatever we do with the language going forward, we need to avoid repeating that.


Muddic
July 20, 2018

Bit of an old topic, but a very relevant discussion.

The thing for me that makes dovahzul a great langauge is the direct word-for-word translation, the limited amount of words, the english grammer and that no-one is 100% fluent with its speech. New people can start following spoken conversations with only a few hours of practise. Following speech is simple, because everyone is speaking relative slow, and the limited vocabulary makes the dovahzul-to-english translation quite easy.

Having to do a bit of mental gymnastics for english-to-dovahzul translation is not bothering me much, with a bit of practise and some non-canon words this can still be done real time. But I think it is important that the sentence is not abstract after translating dovahzul to english.

We have a group of 10 people that come together once a month and use dovahzul in speech. Most people in this group have never played Skyrim or played only though half the game. We are open for a little bit of lore-based-language, but it should remain within reason.

In the last few months I have noticed that most people on the discord server talk in english and occasuanally in canon-only dovahzul. When I try to have a conversation in dovahzul and I have to limited myself to canon-only. I notice that it takes really long to get a decent sentence, and I immediatily known why most conversations is done in english.

The reason why I am reviving this topic is to ask if now 5 months later there are any plans on expanding the langauge? Or maybe better said. What is required to take the next step?

I would really like to have some non-canon conversations with people. And everytime our group decides on using a new non-canon word that makes little sense, they ask why do we even use this? The answer is, because the dovahzul community uses it. But based on what I have seen the dovahzul community is for the largest part only using canon.

by Muddic
July 20, 2018

Bit of an old topic, but a very relevant discussion.

The thing for me that makes dovahzul a great langauge is the direct word-for-word translation, the limited amount of words, the english grammer and that no-one is 100% fluent with its speech. New people can start following spoken conversations with only a few hours of practise. Following speech is simple, because everyone is speaking relative slow, and the limited vocabulary makes the dovahzul-to-english translation quite easy.

Having to do a bit of mental gymnastics for english-to-dovahzul translation is not bothering me much, with a bit of practise and some non-canon words this can still be done real time. But I think it is important that the sentence is not abstract after translating dovahzul to english.

We have a group of 10 people that come together once a month and use dovahzul in speech. Most people in this group have never played Skyrim or played only though half the game. We are open for a little bit of lore-based-language, but it should remain within reason.

In the last few months I have noticed that most people on the discord server talk in english and occasuanally in canon-only dovahzul. When I try to have a conversation in dovahzul and I have to limited myself to canon-only. I notice that it takes really long to get a decent sentence, and I immediatily known why most conversations is done in english.

The reason why I am reviving this topic is to ask if now 5 months later there are any plans on expanding the langauge? Or maybe better said. What is required to take the next step?

I would really like to have some non-canon conversations with people. And everytime our group decides on using a new non-canon word that makes little sense, they ask why do we even use this? The answer is, because the dovahzul community uses it. But based on what I have seen the dovahzul community is for the largest part only using canon.

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