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A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Dovahzul Calligraphy with fountain pens!

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Krahvulgein
June 27, 2013

 

Sorry about the quality and position of the photo...

by Krahvulgein
June 27, 2013

 

Sorry about the quality and position of the photo...


paarthurnax
Administrator
June 27, 2013

Again, this looks really good!  I have a software that can take a drawing like this and make a font out of it, but I might need a clearer image.  Do you think you can try and get one more in focus?  Brighter lighting might help.

by paarthurnax
June 27, 2013

Again, this looks really good!  I have a software that can take a drawing like this and make a font out of it, but I might need a clearer image.  Do you think you can try and get one more in focus?  Brighter lighting might help.


Krahvulgein
June 27, 2013
paarthurnax

Again, this looks really good!  I have a software that can take a drawing like this and make a font out of it, but I might need a clearer image.  Do you think you can try and get one more in focus?  Brighter lighting might help.

I'll try.

by Krahvulgein
June 27, 2013
paarthurnax

Again, this looks really good!  I have a software that can take a drawing like this and make a font out of it, but I might need a clearer image.  Do you think you can try and get one more in focus?  Brighter lighting might help.

I'll try.


Krahvulgein
June 27, 2013

How's this?

 

by Krahvulgein
June 27, 2013

How's this?

 


Jogg
August 16, 2013

Sostuz, I do not know "who" was the first dragon to write words on the wall or the fisrt "nord" to transcribe dragon characters on books, but I am sure that it was not correctly done. 

Let me explain: if you know chinese, japanese etc. you really KNOW (100% sure) that it is quite easy to "see" the movement of the hand when writing a specific character and lots of people that do not know chinese when trying to copy Chinese ideograms generally fail to write the characters in the correct order. 

If you know a Dragon (and we know it from the game), we are able to see that they (the dragons) act "naturally" and by "being natural" it was supposed to reflect this concept to the writing system. 

Considering the order of movement of chinese traces adapted to human hand (or Dragon paw) and tools for cuneiform writing, it is NOT natural that Dragons would write letters like "h", "j", "m", "u", "ey", "oo" and "uu", because these characters present an upward paw movment... and upward movement when writing is "unnatural"... even for dragons!

As I said, even for a dragon, upward movments are "unnatural"... They generally do downward and sideways attacks... an upward attack?! Not natural!

This subject - the correct order of dragon writing traces - brings us another problem: the letters "m" and "uu" the only difference is the order of the traces. If you use a pen, this writing system fail.

Some people say... "The characters were written using the nails..." Hummm... then, the square "dot" in the character is a square nail making a hole on the wall?

Sostuz, your effort was great, but, after studying chinese and cuneiform writing systems, I have to say that something is not good with the Dragons writing and dragon claws used to write Dragon characters... 

by Jogg
August 16, 2013

Sostuz, I do not know "who" was the first dragon to write words on the wall or the fisrt "nord" to transcribe dragon characters on books, but I am sure that it was not correctly done. 

Let me explain: if you know chinese, japanese etc. you really KNOW (100% sure) that it is quite easy to "see" the movement of the hand when writing a specific character and lots of people that do not know chinese when trying to copy Chinese ideograms generally fail to write the characters in the correct order. 

If you know a Dragon (and we know it from the game), we are able to see that they (the dragons) act "naturally" and by "being natural" it was supposed to reflect this concept to the writing system. 

Considering the order of movement of chinese traces adapted to human hand (or Dragon paw) and tools for cuneiform writing, it is NOT natural that Dragons would write letters like "h", "j", "m", "u", "ey", "oo" and "uu", because these characters present an upward paw movment... and upward movement when writing is "unnatural"... even for dragons!

As I said, even for a dragon, upward movments are "unnatural"... They generally do downward and sideways attacks... an upward attack?! Not natural!

This subject - the correct order of dragon writing traces - brings us another problem: the letters "m" and "uu" the only difference is the order of the traces. If you use a pen, this writing system fail.

Some people say... "The characters were written using the nails..." Hummm... then, the square "dot" in the character is a square nail making a hole on the wall?

Sostuz, your effort was great, but, after studying chinese and cuneiform writing systems, I have to say that something is not good with the Dragons writing and dragon claws used to write Dragon characters... 


paarthurnax
Administrator
August 17, 2013

I do see what you're trying to say, but I think the point is lost since what's depicted here is a human writing "human" variants of the letters.  You can find the original alphabet here, which is taken directly from Skyrim.

by paarthurnax
August 17, 2013

I do see what you're trying to say, but I think the point is lost since what's depicted here is a human writing "human" variants of the letters.  You can find the original alphabet here, which is taken directly from Skyrim.


Jogg
August 17, 2013

Paarthumax, I have played this game as well and I have seen the characters in the game too.

However, after seeing how "things" were done in real ancient "human" writing systems, it means that I can question how good a "conlang", a game constructed language, the Dragon language, would be "if" . 

I am really sure that there's no "missed point" about "human letters", because I teach Japanese language and attention to detail is "a must" (in japanese syllabary and Chinese Ideograms)... as "human variants" - as you call them - in japanese they are not called "variants" but simply "mistakes".

If a human can not do it properly (to write the characters of a given language), can this "human" correctly spread the language?

:) Of course, nothing will change by the simple fact that I am questioning how things were done about Dragon Language writing system and its characters will remain the way they are in the game... but, you will have to agree with me,  "to question" is still the best way to achieve knowledge.

by Jogg
August 17, 2013

Paarthumax, I have played this game as well and I have seen the characters in the game too.

However, after seeing how "things" were done in real ancient "human" writing systems, it means that I can question how good a "conlang", a game constructed language, the Dragon language, would be "if" . 

I am really sure that there's no "missed point" about "human letters", because I teach Japanese language and attention to detail is "a must" (in japanese syllabary and Chinese Ideograms)... as "human variants" - as you call them - in japanese they are not called "variants" but simply "mistakes".

If a human can not do it properly (to write the characters of a given language), can this "human" correctly spread the language?

:) Of course, nothing will change by the simple fact that I am questioning how things were done about Dragon Language writing system and its characters will remain the way they are in the game... but, you will have to agree with me,  "to question" is still the best way to achieve knowledge.


paarthurnax
Administrator
August 18, 2013

It's good to question, but you are making two big assumptions here:

  • The Dragon alphabet has a stroke order
  • Letters cannot be wrtiten with upwards motion

You mentioned cuneiform earlier, which was one of the alphabet's basis.  Here's a link showing how it was written.  Note the use of the stylus, not a pen or brush.  It is much easier to make vertical wedges with a stylus.  See some more writing here.  There are even wedges that would appear to be written with upward motions, but are simply from turning the stylus vertically.

Please don't say that Sostuz's reproduction of the alphabet is wrong when it is exactly as it is appears in-game.  That's unfair to them.  If you feel that the alphabet is inaccurate of what an actual alphabet might look like, that is something to go to Bethesda for.  They created the language.  We just use it, and the information presented here is accurate to Bethesda's creation.

TL;DR: The Dragon alphabet is like cuneiform, written with a stylus, and is not like kanji or katakana, written with a brush or pen, so the shape of its letters wouldn't be restricted to downward motions.

by paarthurnax
August 18, 2013

It's good to question, but you are making two big assumptions here:

  • The Dragon alphabet has a stroke order
  • Letters cannot be wrtiten with upwards motion

You mentioned cuneiform earlier, which was one of the alphabet's basis.  Here's a link showing how it was written.  Note the use of the stylus, not a pen or brush.  It is much easier to make vertical wedges with a stylus.  See some more writing here.  There are even wedges that would appear to be written with upward motions, but are simply from turning the stylus vertically.

Please don't say that Sostuz's reproduction of the alphabet is wrong when it is exactly as it is appears in-game.  That's unfair to them.  If you feel that the alphabet is inaccurate of what an actual alphabet might look like, that is something to go to Bethesda for.  They created the language.  We just use it, and the information presented here is accurate to Bethesda's creation.

TL;DR: The Dragon alphabet is like cuneiform, written with a stylus, and is not like kanji or katakana, written with a brush or pen, so the shape of its letters wouldn't be restricted to downward motions.


paarthurnax
Administrator
August 18, 2013

I would like to add though, that instead of modifying the canon alphabet, you're more than welcome to draw up a calligraphy-oriented variation of the alphabet that only uses downward strokes.  Imagine how other cultures in the Elder Scrolls universe might have adapted it to their use, such as the Akiviri (who are, as far as we've seen, the more East-Asian-inspired culture in the setting).

by paarthurnax
August 18, 2013

I would like to add though, that instead of modifying the canon alphabet, you're more than welcome to draw up a calligraphy-oriented variation of the alphabet that only uses downward strokes.  Imagine how other cultures in the Elder Scrolls universe might have adapted it to their use, such as the Akiviri (who are, as far as we've seen, the more East-Asian-inspired culture in the setting).


Krahvulgein
October 26, 2013

I'll try that! It has been a while since I have done Eastern Calligraphy...

by Krahvulgein
October 26, 2013

I'll try that! It has been a while since I have done Eastern Calligraphy...


dyll131198
May 5, 2014

FNEIN

by dyll131198
May 5, 2014

FNEIN


Krahvulgein
May 6, 2014

FNEIN

what?

by Krahvulgein
May 6, 2014

FNEIN

what?


Mahlaansaviik
May 6, 2014
Sostuz Peliik

FNEIN

what?

"It's a secret to everybody." But great job writing that, it's incredibly well done. Do you remember how long it took you by chance? Also, how far are you with the variation?

by Mahlaansaviik
May 6, 2014
Sostuz Peliik

FNEIN

what?

"It's a secret to everybody." But great job writing that, it's incredibly well done. Do you remember how long it took you by chance? Also, how far are you with the variation?


dyll131198
May 6, 2014

Sorry, never mind.

by dyll131198
May 6, 2014

Sorry, never mind.


Krahvulgein
May 11, 2014
Mahlaansaviik
Sostuz Peliik

FNEIN

what?

"It's a secret to everybody." But great job writing that, it's incredibly well done. Do you remember how long it took you by chance? Also, how far are you with the variation?

I completeed it three months ago then lost it but i have it memorized. The 'Akavir Version' took only five minutes.

by Krahvulgein
May 11, 2014
Mahlaansaviik
Sostuz Peliik

FNEIN

what?

"It's a secret to everybody." But great job writing that, it's incredibly well done. Do you remember how long it took you by chance? Also, how far are you with the variation?

I completeed it three months ago then lost it but i have it memorized. The 'Akavir Version' took only five minutes.

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