Rot Tinvaak - How we "Love" in Dovahzul
Liis Administrator July 14, 2018 |
I know that some of the words are based on real world languages, but I don't think that's enough excuse to tailor a language used by divine immortal creatures with entirely different understandings than mortals of the world they're in to natural languages of our own universe. I don't disagree with your translation, and I don't disagree with Ruvgein's translations either. It's not the translation I disagree with, it's some of the reasoning. |
laaniiksedov July 15, 2018 |
Liis I can see where your coming from completely. We also must remember, though, that it wasn't just Dragons speaking Dovahzul as the language was developing (in canon), Ancient Nords were said to have spoken Dovahzul. And while I agree that beings such as you described wouldn't have our understanding of the world, they wouldn't completely be outside of the influence of others who used their langauge. |
Liis
I know that some of the words are based on real world languages, but I don't think that's enough excuse to tailor a language used by divine immortal creatures with entirely different understandings than mortals of the world they're in to natural languages of our own universe. I don't disagree with your translation, and I don't disagree with Ruvgein's translations either. It's not the translation I disagree with, it's some of the reasoning.
I can see where your coming from completely. We also must remember, though, that it wasn't just Dragons speaking Dovahzul as the language was developing (in canon), Ancient Nords were said to have spoken Dovahzul. And while I agree that beings such as you described wouldn't have our understanding of the world, they wouldn't completely be outside of the influence of others who used their langauge.
Liis Administrator July 15, 2018 |
"as the language was developing" The dragon language doesn't develop. The language permeates through time along with the dragons, so it has always been the same - just like the dragons. It is a very magical language. |
The dragon language doesn't develop. The language permeates through time along with the dragons, so it has always been the same - just like the dragons. It is a very magical language.
Ruvgein July 15, 2018 |
The concept of love is not something Dragons would understand, it's mortal nature, and not in their own. Wanting to own and dominate is rape in our culture, the opposite of love. To translate the concept of love, you use ways to express actual love, something of a completely different breed. Love is about care, friendship and various other concepts I won't get into, but that doesn't have a single thing to do with the concept you talk about. If one wants to translate rape, they would use words of domination, control and lust. These characteristics are not found in love, and therefore do not fit as translations for it in my humble opinion. |
Wanting to own and dominate is rape in our culture, the opposite of love. To translate the concept of love, you use ways to express actual love, something of a completely different breed.
Love is about care, friendship and various other concepts I won't get into, but that doesn't have a single thing to do with the concept you talk about.
If one wants to translate rape, they would use words of domination, control and lust. These characteristics are not found in love, and therefore do not fit as translations for it in my humble opinion.
Vokriid October 20, 2018 |
I'd have another idea, well, basically a lot of other ideas: If we had a word which means "hate", we could use it and just put a Vo- infront of it, so that it means the opposite. We don't have such a word, but we could use bein instead. Unfortunately we can't say Zu'u vobein hi, for that would mean I clean/heal/purify you. But there are many other possibilities: Qalosiil vobein pah (your presence purifies/heals everything/all). One could also add Zu'u haalvut. "Zu'u haalvut tol qalosiil vobein pah" (I feel that your presence purifies everything). That would make it much more emotional, although haalvut is also linked to "feel with hands". I confess: That is still a chink of my translation, but saying it is still much better than omitting it and we simply don't have a better word for feel. Maybe one could use mindok instead, but that would be too unimotional and too analytical. One could also add a mahfaeraak, like "Zu'u fen haalvut mahfaeraak tol qalosiil vobein pah" (I will feel forever/always that your presence purifies everything). We could also replace pah by Suli (my day). I think, that would fit even better, because it is more personal. And we could replace vobein by kogaan (bless) or maybe even revak (hallow). Everything is optional. Another alternative for haalvut/mindok would be koraav. Koraav is not just see, but also be aware of. One could say something like "Sili koraav ...", or maybe "Sili haalvut ...". Unfortunately we don't have a word for heart ... thus our soul has to feel/sense/see it. That's well too. I think, my favourit combination would be "Sili haalvut tol qalosiil fen kogaan suli mahfaeraak" (my soul feels (right now) that your presence will (always) bless my day). |
Qalosiil vobein pah (your presence purifies/heals everything/all).
One could also add Zu'u haalvut. "Zu'u haalvut tol qalosiil vobein pah" (I feel that your presence purifies everything). That would make it much more emotional, although haalvut is also linked to "feel with hands". I confess: That is still a chink of my translation, but saying it is still much better than omitting it and we simply don't have a better word for feel. Maybe one could use mindok instead, but that would be too unimotional and too analytical.
One could also add a mahfaeraak, like "Zu'u fen haalvut mahfaeraak tol qalosiil vobein pah" (I will feel forever/always that your presence purifies everything).
We could also replace pah by Suli (my day). I think, that would fit even better, because it is more personal.
And we could replace vobein by kogaan (bless) or maybe even revak (hallow). Everything is optional.
Another alternative for haalvut/mindok would be koraav. Koraav is not just see, but also be aware of. One could say something like "Sili koraav ...", or maybe "Sili haalvut ...". Unfortunately we don't have a word for heart ... thus our soul has to feel/sense/see it. That's well too.
I think, my favourit combination would be
"Sili haalvut tol qalosiil fen kogaan suli mahfaeraak" (my soul feels (right now) that your presence will (always) bless my day).
Ruvgein November 26, 2018 |
Vokriid I really like these! I'll add some in, thank you. |
Vokriid
I'd have another idea, well, basically a lot of other ideas...
I really like these! I'll add some in, thank you.
Kaalsenid December 24, 2018 |
Kinda late to the party here, but when I found myself considering the same matter, I thought of hi faal krein do loki, (zu'u)laan aava hi, and of course, like Laan suggested, (zu'u) laan kosa voth hi. Like you said, Ruv, expressing love in Dovahzul is very contextual, since there isn't really a way to come right out and say it. I wouldn't necessarily limit what Laan said to rape, domination and submission can be completely consensual. That's an extremely contextual matter though, and I definitely wouldn't suggest it outright as a translation for or method of expressing love in the context of most relationships and most of the individual contexts within those relationships. Very interesting post, though! :) |
Kinda late to the party here, but when I found myself considering the same matter, I thought of hi faal krein do loki, (zu'u)laan aava hi, and of course, like Laan suggested, (zu'u) laan kosa voth hi.
Like you said, Ruv, expressing love in Dovahzul is very contextual, since there isn't really a way to come right out and say it. I wouldn't necessarily limit what Laan said to rape, domination and submission can be completely consensual. That's an extremely contextual matter though, and I definitely wouldn't suggest it outright as a translation for or method of expressing love in the context of most relationships and most of the individual contexts within those relationships.
Very interesting post, though! :)
Ruvgein December 28, 2018 |
@Kaalsenid Thank you for your thoughts, you're never too late to the party! I get what you're saying, and I like hearing your opinion on it, so know that as I try to phrase this right. ((((!!!!--> Anyone reading this, I try to be PG in what I write, but I don't think I'll be able to here if I want to give a proper answer. If you're underage or are uncomfortable with the topic you probably shouldn't read beyond this warning. <--!!!!!)))))) Now, of course this isn't a place to argue morals, personal opinions and whatnot, so I'll cut the the chase. By it's very definition, rape cannot be consensual. "Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent." -Wikipedia So as far as I see it, rape only means rape because that's what the word translates to. I really don't ever hear it being used in a context unrelated to that, so rape in and of itself cannot be considered. Of course, Dovahzul only has a word for domination. As for domination and submission themselves, it is true many couples enjoy that, but I feel it stems from lust and other emotions, whereas here I'm focusing on a border, more general and "sweet" love. I think I'll have to revisit what domination means to a dragon, though as far as I know right now it's mostly the same. As always, thank you for your thoughts, I keep them in mind for future revisions! I do like what you said in regards to context, and in general you make good points. |
Thank you for your thoughts, you're never too late to the party!
I get what you're saying, and I like hearing your opinion on it, so know that as I try to phrase this right.
((((!!!!--> Anyone reading this, I try to be PG in what I write, but I don't think I'll be able to here if I want to give a proper answer. If you're underage or are uncomfortable with the topic you probably shouldn't read beyond this warning. <--!!!!!))))))
Now, of course this isn't a place to argue morals, personal opinions and whatnot, so I'll cut the the chase.
By it's very definition, rape cannot be consensual.
"Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without that person's consent." -Wikipedia
So as far as I see it, rape only means rape because that's what the word translates to. I really don't ever hear it being used in a context unrelated to that, so rape in and of itself cannot be considered. Of course, Dovahzul only has a word for domination.
As for domination and submission themselves, it is true many couples enjoy that, but I feel it stems from lust and other emotions, whereas here I'm focusing on a border, more general and "sweet" love.
I think I'll have to revisit what domination means to a dragon, though as far as I know right now it's mostly the same.
As always, thank you for your thoughts, I keep them in mind for future revisions! I do like what you said in regards to context, and in general you make good points.
Kaalsenid December 31, 2018 |
@Ruvgein Thank you! Yeah, I absolutely agree in that the concepts of domination/submission to the Dov really wouldn’t compare to our concept of love. Like, I think Laan recognized that it was sorta the Dov’s closest concept, but it doesn’t really translate to what we’d be trying to express. Yeah though, I think our best thing, up until we can develop a canon or sorta semi-canon way of expressing it outright, would just be contextual sweet statements and expressing love otherwise indirectly. |
Thank you! Yeah, I absolutely agree in that the concepts of domination/submission to the Dov really wouldn’t compare to our concept of love. Like, I think Laan recognized that it was sorta the Dov’s closest concept, but it doesn’t really translate to what we’d be trying to express.
Yeah though, I think our best thing, up until we can develop a canon or sorta semi-canon way of expressing it outright, would just be contextual sweet statements and expressing love otherwise indirectly.
Thuryolkrif January 3, 2019 |
This, this i like a lot. This will come in handy at some point. Thanks a million for this! |
This, this i like a lot. This will come in handy at some point. Thanks a million for this!
Kahvozein June 12, 2019 |
"Losei Dii Yol" and "Zu'u Ag Fah Hi" are definitely my favorite ways to say "I love you". |
Vaquita July 12, 2019 |
laaniiksedov I agree with this. In the context of dragon culture, this fits quite well. |
laaniiksedovSo, while I totally understand where you are coming from. I must disagree. There is a completely canon way to say I love you in Dovahzul: Zu'u laan hi. It literally means I want you. but when you consider this happens in other real world languages as well (Spanish: ¡te quiero!). Your own dragon culture discussion lends well to this idea as well. The implication being domination. A full saying might be "Zu'u laan wah rel hi." Or "Zu'u laan hi wah rel dovah." depending on the submissiveness or dominance of the dragon speaking. Another really awesome way to say this. Especially for dragons of the happier male persuasion (reference to original meaning of gay), it could be "Zu'u qilaan wah hi." Or the very bland but accurate "Zu'u laan wah kos voth hi."
I agree with this. In the context of dragon culture, this fits quite well.
Rahdunmal October 11, 2019 |
I really like Smoliin purely because it sounds like the Irish word smóilín which means something along the lines of "little darling". I believe smóilín can also refer to a small coal or ember in addition to the darling connotation derived from "little thrush" which is fitting for the idea of burning with passion. |
I really like Smoliin purely because it sounds like the Irish word smóilín which means something along the lines of "little darling". I believe smóilín can also refer to a small coal or ember in addition to the darling connotation derived from "little thrush" which is fitting for the idea of burning with passion.
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