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Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Translating IRL Religious Texts

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hiith
March 13, 2014

I think that it should be fine to translate texts from other religions. I'd like to see it done, even. Why should Christianity be the only acceptable religion here? And I agree with "Yeshuah" being used for Jesus's name, by the way.

by hiith
March 13, 2014

I think that it should be fine to translate texts from other religions. I'd like to see it done, even. Why should Christianity be the only acceptable religion here? And I agree with "Yeshuah" being used for Jesus's name, by the way.


Drakpa
March 13, 2014
Hiith

Why should Christianity be the only acceptable religion here?

It's just, if Dragon language was a real language, it'd be european and so, there would be first more religious terms influenced by Catholicism than other religions (excpect pagan religions such as the dragon worship)~
But ok, I'll begin to try to translate some~

By the way, would it be OK to add to the dictionary new religious terms such as Buddha and Caryâvatara, or should we add these specific words for example in the Modern Words Factory?

by Drakpa
March 13, 2014
Hiith

Why should Christianity be the only acceptable religion here?

It's just, if Dragon language was a real language, it'd be european and so, there would be first more religious terms influenced by Catholicism than other religions (excpect pagan religions such as the dragon worship)~
But ok, I'll begin to try to translate some~

By the way, would it be OK to add to the dictionary new religious terms such as Buddha and Caryâvatara, or should we add these specific words for example in the Modern Words Factory?


Tinvaakfuntkoraavaan
March 14, 2014

I don't see a reason why not. In fact, as my meager knowledge of eastern religions goes, I think Buddhism would be a very interesting religion to compare to Paarthurnax's Way of the Voice.

As long as it's faithful to the original, I fail to see a reason not to translate it, if you have the time and will to do so. :)

by Tinvaakfuntkoraavaan
March 14, 2014

I don't see a reason why not. In fact, as my meager knowledge of eastern religions goes, I think Buddhism would be a very interesting religion to compare to Paarthurnax's Way of the Voice.

As long as it's faithful to the original, I fail to see a reason not to translate it, if you have the time and will to do so. :)


Drakpa
March 14, 2014

Okay, so I'll begin to translate the Lord Gampopa's instructions "The Jewels' Rosary of the Sublime Path" (about 30 pages in the A5 format)

by Drakpa
March 14, 2014

Okay, so I'll begin to translate the Lord Gampopa's instructions "The Jewels' Rosary of the Sublime Path" (about 30 pages in the A5 format)


otakufreak40
March 14, 2014
Hiith

I think that it should be fine to translate texts from other religions. I'd like to see it done, even. Why should Christianity be the only acceptable religion here? And I agree with "Yeshuah" being used for Jesus's name, by the way.

As far as my original post goes, because I have a Bible and even if I didn't it's probably the easiest holy text to get my hands on.

by otakufreak40
March 14, 2014
Hiith

I think that it should be fine to translate texts from other religions. I'd like to see it done, even. Why should Christianity be the only acceptable religion here? And I agree with "Yeshuah" being used for Jesus's name, by the way.

As far as my original post goes, because I have a Bible and even if I didn't it's probably the easiest holy text to get my hands on.


Rokfentjer
March 19, 2014
Tinvaakfuntkoraavaan

As long as the text is translated veritably and you manage to include as much of the initial tone, context and implications as possible, there is nothing wrong with translating religious texts.

The problem however arises from the fact that Dovahzul is still more or less in its infancy, and religious texts tend to be both verbose as well as filled with allegory and metaphors. You would either need to create many new forms or reduce the quality of the language into a simpler form. Corpuses such as the King James Bible for instance can be a nightmare to translate accurately even to existing, fully-developed languages (that is, if one wants to translate more than just the literal meaning of the words and the general message), and I cannot even imagine the vast amount of effort you would have to invest into something like that. But say you managed it, it would be an immense contribution to the evolution of Dovahzul.

So, apparently, Jesus's name would be something like iieysoos from his greek name "Iesous", pronounced "ee-ay-sooce'", according to this Greek dictionary (though I don't know what the apostrophe is for).

The apostrophe in Greek marks aspiration, so essentially you add a "h"-ish sound to that place. Also, that is a latinized version, Greeks have a /j/ sound, the Roman variant changes that to /i/ because the Romans used "I" to write both /i/ and /j/ - the pronunciation was probably with a /j/ from the start, since the Hebrew version is "Yeshua" /jɛʃua/.

You could either translate "Jesus" to "Kulserah" / "son of god," or you could go with simply using the same name, but pronouncing it as it likely would have been pronounced in Dovahzul, which would then be transcribed as something like "Jiizus" (keeping the English /dÊ’/, long /i:/ and the short /u/, along with writing the /z/ as "z" as is customary in Dovahzul) or "Jiizes" (if you want the second vowel to be closer to the central schwa-vowel as opposed to the more back-positioned /u/), or if you want to go back to the original pronunciation, "Yeshuah."

As to how to write Jesus in Dovahzul, might I suggest the name Rahlossavend (God is Salvation), as the name Jesus comes, as you stated, from the Hebrew Yeshua, which is a contracted form of the name Yehoshua, which means 'Yahweh is Salvation.'

by Rokfentjer
March 19, 2014
Tinvaakfuntkoraavaan

As long as the text is translated veritably and you manage to include as much of the initial tone, context and implications as possible, there is nothing wrong with translating religious texts.

The problem however arises from the fact that Dovahzul is still more or less in its infancy, and religious texts tend to be both verbose as well as filled with allegory and metaphors. You would either need to create many new forms or reduce the quality of the language into a simpler form. Corpuses such as the King James Bible for instance can be a nightmare to translate accurately even to existing, fully-developed languages (that is, if one wants to translate more than just the literal meaning of the words and the general message), and I cannot even imagine the vast amount of effort you would have to invest into something like that. But say you managed it, it would be an immense contribution to the evolution of Dovahzul.

So, apparently, Jesus's name would be something like iieysoos from his greek name "Iesous", pronounced "ee-ay-sooce'", according to this Greek dictionary (though I don't know what the apostrophe is for).

The apostrophe in Greek marks aspiration, so essentially you add a "h"-ish sound to that place. Also, that is a latinized version, Greeks have a /j/ sound, the Roman variant changes that to /i/ because the Romans used "I" to write both /i/ and /j/ - the pronunciation was probably with a /j/ from the start, since the Hebrew version is "Yeshua" /jɛʃua/.

You could either translate "Jesus" to "Kulserah" / "son of god," or you could go with simply using the same name, but pronouncing it as it likely would have been pronounced in Dovahzul, which would then be transcribed as something like "Jiizus" (keeping the English /dÊ’/, long /i:/ and the short /u/, along with writing the /z/ as "z" as is customary in Dovahzul) or "Jiizes" (if you want the second vowel to be closer to the central schwa-vowel as opposed to the more back-positioned /u/), or if you want to go back to the original pronunciation, "Yeshuah."

As to how to write Jesus in Dovahzul, might I suggest the name Rahlossavend (God is Salvation), as the name Jesus comes, as you stated, from the Hebrew Yeshua, which is a contracted form of the name Yehoshua, which means 'Yahweh is Salvation.'


Tinvaakfuntkoraavaan
March 21, 2014

Good point Rokfentjer, especially since Dovahzul names are all about the combined meaning of the 3 words they are compounded on.

As for Buddha, I recall it was supposed to mean something along the lines of "Enlightened one" (I may be wrong, writing from memory here), so perhaps something including Onikiv as the base word. Speaking of which, I don't think we have an inflection for changing nouns into adjectives, it might be worth debating whether it should be invented or not.

by Tinvaakfuntkoraavaan
March 21, 2014

Good point Rokfentjer, especially since Dovahzul names are all about the combined meaning of the 3 words they are compounded on.

As for Buddha, I recall it was supposed to mean something along the lines of "Enlightened one" (I may be wrong, writing from memory here), so perhaps something including Onikiv as the base word. Speaking of which, I don't think we have an inflection for changing nouns into adjectives, it might be worth debating whether it should be invented or not.


Drakpa
March 27, 2014
Tinvaakfuntkoraavaan

As for Buddha, I recall it was supposed to mean something along the lines of "Enlightened one" (I may be wrong, writing from memory here), so perhaps something including Onikiv as the base word.

Personally, I would prefer to keep "Onikiv" for "Enlightenment" and to make another (close) word for Buddha, as it is not exactly the same thing and the difference between "enlightenment" and "buddha" may be really important in some texts (for examples boddhisatvas reached enlightenment, but they aren't yet buddhas).

I'd propose then "Onikaan" for "Buddha", and as I mentioned the term "boddhisatva", I'd propose for it "Griin-onikaan" (based on "almost" (griindol) and "buddha"), and "Dharma" (Buddha's teaching) may be "Onizul".

by Drakpa
March 27, 2014
Tinvaakfuntkoraavaan

As for Buddha, I recall it was supposed to mean something along the lines of "Enlightened one" (I may be wrong, writing from memory here), so perhaps something including Onikiv as the base word.

Personally, I would prefer to keep "Onikiv" for "Enlightenment" and to make another (close) word for Buddha, as it is not exactly the same thing and the difference between "enlightenment" and "buddha" may be really important in some texts (for examples boddhisatvas reached enlightenment, but they aren't yet buddhas).

I'd propose then "Onikaan" for "Buddha", and as I mentioned the term "boddhisatva", I'd propose for it "Griin-onikaan" (based on "almost" (griindol) and "buddha"), and "Dharma" (Buddha's teaching) may be "Onizul".


otakufreak40
March 27, 2014

Here's a preview of things to come: the first ten verses from Genesis 1 (Kosedeykal Gein) translated into Dovahzul. Enjoy.

Kosedeykel

1 Ko Faal Gonah Rah wahlaan Faal Lokke ahrk gol. 2Ahst daar tiid lein kos nid buld uv hjemur, vulom lost uben daasin do dil, ahrk Faal Zii do Rah hovered uben lom.

3Ahrk Rah drey saag “Zu’u gelaad kun wah kos”, ful kun lost. 4Rah worax tol kun lost pruzah, ahrk Rok nivos kun ahrk vul. 5Rah foraan kun ol sul ahrk vul ol vulon. Faal Avond drey qolaas Faal Feyl. Faal Diist Sul lost drehlaan.

6Ahrk Rah drey saag “Vund fent kos wahlaan wah nivos lom ahrk lom.” 7Rah hren vund ahrk nivos lom avok nol lom atum. Ahrk nii lost ful. 8Rah foraan vund lok. Faal Avond drey qolaas Faal Feyl. Faal Ziist Sul lost drehlaan.

9Ahrk Rah drey saag “Lom atum lok kend lahvraan, ahrk kirt himdah kend viim.” Ahrk nii lost ful. 10Rah foraan himdah ahrk okaazze. Ahrk Rah worax tol nii lost pruzah. Faal Avond drey qolaas Faal Feyl. Faal Siid Sul lost drehlaan.

by otakufreak40
March 27, 2014

Here's a preview of things to come: the first ten verses from Genesis 1 (Kosedeykal Gein) translated into Dovahzul. Enjoy.

Kosedeykel

1 Ko Faal Gonah Rah wahlaan Faal Lokke ahrk gol. 2Ahst daar tiid lein kos nid buld uv hjemur, vulom lost uben daasin do dil, ahrk Faal Zii do Rah hovered uben lom.

3Ahrk Rah drey saag “Zu’u gelaad kun wah kos”, ful kun lost. 4Rah worax tol kun lost pruzah, ahrk Rok nivos kun ahrk vul. 5Rah foraan kun ol sul ahrk vul ol vulon. Faal Avond drey qolaas Faal Feyl. Faal Diist Sul lost drehlaan.

6Ahrk Rah drey saag “Vund fent kos wahlaan wah nivos lom ahrk lom.” 7Rah hren vund ahrk nivos lom avok nol lom atum. Ahrk nii lost ful. 8Rah foraan vund lok. Faal Avond drey qolaas Faal Feyl. Faal Ziist Sul lost drehlaan.

9Ahrk Rah drey saag “Lom atum lok kend lahvraan, ahrk kirt himdah kend viim.” Ahrk nii lost ful. 10Rah foraan himdah ahrk okaazze. Ahrk Rah worax tol nii lost pruzah. Faal Avond drey qolaas Faal Feyl. Faal Siid Sul lost drehlaan.


Drakpa
March 31, 2014

I also have a beginning of the translation of Gampopa's "Precious Jewels Rosary of the sublime Path". Just a little note: I only have its Tibetan and French version,  so I first translated it in English, and then in Dovahzul. I'm currently working in a full English translation with annotations (I don't think there's a lot of people who know what the Kali-Yuga is), and then I'll add the annotations to the Dovahzul version and finish the translation

Here is the English version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2gIxlZGDdX_TEF5VV9nTFNQcUE/edit?usp=sharing

And here is my Dovahzul Translation (words in red weren't yet accepted when I created this PDF): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2gIxlZGDdX_X3djTEY2XzFqcGc/edit?usp=sharing

Just remember that this text was written for monks, not for common people, that's why it may seems a bit sectarian or inflexible.

by Drakpa
March 31, 2014

I also have a beginning of the translation of Gampopa's "Precious Jewels Rosary of the sublime Path". Just a little note: I only have its Tibetan and French version,  so I first translated it in English, and then in Dovahzul. I'm currently working in a full English translation with annotations (I don't think there's a lot of people who know what the Kali-Yuga is), and then I'll add the annotations to the Dovahzul version and finish the translation

Here is the English version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2gIxlZGDdX_TEF5VV9nTFNQcUE/edit?usp=sharing

And here is my Dovahzul Translation (words in red weren't yet accepted when I created this PDF): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2gIxlZGDdX_X3djTEY2XzFqcGc/edit?usp=sharing

Just remember that this text was written for monks, not for common people, that's why it may seems a bit sectarian or inflexible.


Onikdojyah
April 2, 2014
otakufreak40

Woo, this is a whole 'nother can o' worms (wyrms?). Anyways, should it be seen as acceptable or offensive to translate real life religious texts (e.g. the Bible) into Dovahzul. Please, when you answer, provide a reason and don't hate on anyone. The former adds credibility to your argument while the latter is for the sake of courtesy and to not break the rules.

 

As a religious person, I feel it should be acceptable. I think it would pleasing to my God to incorporate the holy text of my religion into my life in such an enjoyable way, but I felt the need to ask anyways. Y'know, just to be safe.

 

So, let's avoid all the nuclear landmines and have a civil discussion, shall we?

If my point of view can still be considered, I believe that the Good Book and our concepts of God are both part of our personal yet diverse relationships to the Devine. Hence, if it makes you happy, no mortal being can rightfully stop you. Everyone will think what they will, but it is your choice to let that hinder you. I myself study Dovahzul for its religious and magickal implications, but at its base I'm only studying words and their meaning, using another language to give it more appeal. As long as it comunicates a message or variety of messages that speak to YOU, if you are the only one with intention of enjoying it, then go ahead! You may want to take a more diverse and complex approach twords translating it for other people however. 

by Onikdojyah
April 2, 2014
otakufreak40

Woo, this is a whole 'nother can o' worms (wyrms?). Anyways, should it be seen as acceptable or offensive to translate real life religious texts (e.g. the Bible) into Dovahzul. Please, when you answer, provide a reason and don't hate on anyone. The former adds credibility to your argument while the latter is for the sake of courtesy and to not break the rules.

 

As a religious person, I feel it should be acceptable. I think it would pleasing to my God to incorporate the holy text of my religion into my life in such an enjoyable way, but I felt the need to ask anyways. Y'know, just to be safe.

 

So, let's avoid all the nuclear landmines and have a civil discussion, shall we?

If my point of view can still be considered, I believe that the Good Book and our concepts of God are both part of our personal yet diverse relationships to the Devine. Hence, if it makes you happy, no mortal being can rightfully stop you. Everyone will think what they will, but it is your choice to let that hinder you. I myself study Dovahzul for its religious and magickal implications, but at its base I'm only studying words and their meaning, using another language to give it more appeal. As long as it comunicates a message or variety of messages that speak to YOU, if you are the only one with intention of enjoying it, then go ahead! You may want to take a more diverse and complex approach twords translating it for other people however. 

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