Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

And more questions

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gtfobro
May 10, 2015

But as they are used today, they all generally mean the same thing and are still considered English- very few people use those words in those exact meanings (In fact, last I checked, Latin is considered 'dead'). Those words are synonymous today because languages change - that's why we don't use 'Old English' or the exact German or other word nowadays =) And whether or not they derive from another language doesn't change the fact that they might actually mean the same thing, maybe they were intended. And if I'm thinking right, very few words are actually 'true' English, since it's one of the Romance Languages. English is so flawed and messy... I think understand why my mate dislikes it so much xD

Shul being a 'sun fire' and krein being 'sun power/divinity' sounds about right to me =) I rarely hear about the last three examples of 'sun' uses though xD I hear sunshine being used quite a bit though hehe

May I ask if there's a project you're working on that relates to these questions, or do you just want to be as clear as possible?

by gtfobro
May 10, 2015

But as they are used today, they all generally mean the same thing and are still considered English- very few people use those words in those exact meanings (In fact, last I checked, Latin is considered 'dead'). Those words are synonymous today because languages change - that's why we don't use 'Old English' or the exact German or other word nowadays =) And whether or not they derive from another language doesn't change the fact that they might actually mean the same thing, maybe they were intended. And if I'm thinking right, very few words are actually 'true' English, since it's one of the Romance Languages. English is so flawed and messy... I think understand why my mate dislikes it so much xD

Shul being a 'sun fire' and krein being 'sun power/divinity' sounds about right to me =) I rarely hear about the last three examples of 'sun' uses though xD I hear sunshine being used quite a bit though hehe

May I ask if there's a project you're working on that relates to these questions, or do you just want to be as clear as possible?


Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

Latin is dead as it has no native speakers, just like ancient greek. Yet a lot of languages derive from latin, like spanish, french or italian and use almost entirely latin words and indeed could understand some latin. And even in supposedly germanic languages latin has a huge influence in the everyday language - in english youd rather say castle than burg as example and similiar in german you would rather say mauer than wall (though wall is a german and germanic term). And in science, latin and greek still make up like 80% of scientific terms.

 

Dovahzul is different from real languages as real languages evolve over time, region and migration and they also adapt words from other languages.

Dovahzul is supposed to be unchanging, timeless, eternal neither adapting words from other languages nor changing over time, no dialects etc. 

This means if one thing in dovahzul has 2 words for it, it MUST have 2 different meanings. You do not create 2 words for one and the same thing in one language. There is a distinction. Example child - kid. A child is a non adult human while a kid is a non adult goat. That kid became a synonym to child is because the language changed and viewed children as as much trouble as small goats. And that would not happen in an unchangeable language like dovahzul.

So if there are 2 terms for sun in dovahzul there must be 2 different meanings to it. Just like the Inuit have like 50 words for snow but each word describes a certain variant of snow - they are not all terms for just snow they are terms for snow falling, snow on the ground, wet snow, dry snow, snow in water etc. But they are not the same.

And that is what i would like to know - what is the difference betwee shul and krein. there must be one yet i am only guessing what that would be

 

Besides english is a germanic language, not a romance language. English uses a lot of romance words but the majority of its words and grammar are germanic, and its origin (saxon) is also germanic.

 

i didnt start a project yet but i am really into linguistics and dovahzul and i want dovahzul to become a rich language, similiar to klingon or sindarin. I wouldnt go as far as esperanto which raises children with esparanto as main language to create native speakers therefore turning a conlang into a real language but i really would like to see dovahzul as equal to klingon and other famous conlangs.

And for that i think, its important to flesh out linguistic details, not just create more words and more grammar.

by Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

Latin is dead as it has no native speakers, just like ancient greek. Yet a lot of languages derive from latin, like spanish, french or italian and use almost entirely latin words and indeed could understand some latin. And even in supposedly germanic languages latin has a huge influence in the everyday language - in english youd rather say castle than burg as example and similiar in german you would rather say mauer than wall (though wall is a german and germanic term). And in science, latin and greek still make up like 80% of scientific terms.

 

Dovahzul is different from real languages as real languages evolve over time, region and migration and they also adapt words from other languages.

Dovahzul is supposed to be unchanging, timeless, eternal neither adapting words from other languages nor changing over time, no dialects etc. 

This means if one thing in dovahzul has 2 words for it, it MUST have 2 different meanings. You do not create 2 words for one and the same thing in one language. There is a distinction. Example child - kid. A child is a non adult human while a kid is a non adult goat. That kid became a synonym to child is because the language changed and viewed children as as much trouble as small goats. And that would not happen in an unchangeable language like dovahzul.

So if there are 2 terms for sun in dovahzul there must be 2 different meanings to it. Just like the Inuit have like 50 words for snow but each word describes a certain variant of snow - they are not all terms for just snow they are terms for snow falling, snow on the ground, wet snow, dry snow, snow in water etc. But they are not the same.

And that is what i would like to know - what is the difference betwee shul and krein. there must be one yet i am only guessing what that would be

 

Besides english is a germanic language, not a romance language. English uses a lot of romance words but the majority of its words and grammar are germanic, and its origin (saxon) is also germanic.

 

i didnt start a project yet but i am really into linguistics and dovahzul and i want dovahzul to become a rich language, similiar to klingon or sindarin. I wouldnt go as far as esperanto which raises children with esparanto as main language to create native speakers therefore turning a conlang into a real language but i really would like to see dovahzul as equal to klingon and other famous conlangs.

And for that i think, its important to flesh out linguistic details, not just create more words and more grammar.


paarthurnax
Administrator
May 10, 2015

Orkbar, see my previous post on Dovahzul & Old English. From that post:

 

One question that comes up often is that of synonyms; krein vs. shul, sivaas vs. sunvaar, or fod vs. rul. The answer may lie in Old English:

Partly because of the demands of alliteration, Old English poetry needed a wide vocabulary, with a range of synonyms for recurring themes such as man, warfare, and God. For instance, Metod and Scieppend both mean 'Creator', and Dryhten and FrÄ“a both mean 'Lord'. The vocabulary of Old English poetry is to some extent different from the vocabulary of prose, and here the words Metod 'God', firas 'men', and FrÄ“a 'Lord' are recorded only in poetry. Later stages of the language also have a poetic register - a sense that certain words are primarily suitable for use in poetry - but this is particularly pronounced in Old English, where a sizeable proportion of the known vocabulary is restricted to the poetic corpus, and referred to as 'poetic diction'.

p. 100-101

From what little we've seen of poetry in the dragon language, we know that alliteration is perhaps not a driving factor, but rhyming could exert the same pressure to have a wealth of synonyms. What Dovahzul also has that Old English does not is a set of words that would be used primarily for Shouting. This results in words like ah "hunter" and nir "to hunt."

by paarthurnax
May 10, 2015

Orkbar, see my previous post on Dovahzul & Old English. From that post:

 

One question that comes up often is that of synonyms; krein vs. shul, sivaas vs. sunvaar, or fod vs. rul. The answer may lie in Old English:

Partly because of the demands of alliteration, Old English poetry needed a wide vocabulary, with a range of synonyms for recurring themes such as man, warfare, and God. For instance, Metod and Scieppend both mean 'Creator', and Dryhten and FrÄ“a both mean 'Lord'. The vocabulary of Old English poetry is to some extent different from the vocabulary of prose, and here the words Metod 'God', firas 'men', and FrÄ“a 'Lord' are recorded only in poetry. Later stages of the language also have a poetic register - a sense that certain words are primarily suitable for use in poetry - but this is particularly pronounced in Old English, where a sizeable proportion of the known vocabulary is restricted to the poetic corpus, and referred to as 'poetic diction'.

p. 100-101

From what little we've seen of poetry in the dragon language, we know that alliteration is perhaps not a driving factor, but rhyming could exert the same pressure to have a wealth of synonyms. What Dovahzul also has that Old English does not is a set of words that would be used primarily for Shouting. This results in words like ah "hunter" and nir "to hunt."


Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

Yet there must be a mindset to it. Words express thoughts, they are ideas made into sound, that is how accustic language works. Just like written language is ideas made into symbols.

 

Therefore i doubt that you would create new words solely for poetic purpose, so that stuff rhymes. Modern poetrists use old words, out of fashion words that are barely used anymore but dont invent completly new words just or the rhyme.

Some english writers did create completly new words but also gave them a meaning for which english had no word for prior to it like humbug.

 

I dont really see why an eternal language of gods would create words just for a rhyme. i can see Bethesda doing so, but "in dragon mind" this sounds like a totally stupid idea. They are words of power not words of rhyme. 

As you said in a different post "ah" is not the same as "hunter" hunter is merely the closest english translation. 

Therefore i dont think shul is "sun" but since it refers to the fiery power of the sun, shul is actually the power of sunlight, the heat, the fiere of the sun while krein may refer to the divine light of the sun. and there may be another dovahzul word that refers to the celestial body - the star "sun"

I am not satisfied with shul and krein being the same thing, that sounds just wrong to me.

by Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

Yet there must be a mindset to it. Words express thoughts, they are ideas made into sound, that is how accustic language works. Just like written language is ideas made into symbols.

 

Therefore i doubt that you would create new words solely for poetic purpose, so that stuff rhymes. Modern poetrists use old words, out of fashion words that are barely used anymore but dont invent completly new words just or the rhyme.

Some english writers did create completly new words but also gave them a meaning for which english had no word for prior to it like humbug.

 

I dont really see why an eternal language of gods would create words just for a rhyme. i can see Bethesda doing so, but "in dragon mind" this sounds like a totally stupid idea. They are words of power not words of rhyme. 

As you said in a different post "ah" is not the same as "hunter" hunter is merely the closest english translation. 

Therefore i dont think shul is "sun" but since it refers to the fiery power of the sun, shul is actually the power of sunlight, the heat, the fiere of the sun while krein may refer to the divine light of the sun. and there may be another dovahzul word that refers to the celestial body - the star "sun"

I am not satisfied with shul and krein being the same thing, that sounds just wrong to me.


paarthurnax
Administrator
May 10, 2015
Orkar Isber

Therefore i doubt that you would create new words solely for poetic purpose, so that stuff rhymes. Modern poetrists use old words, out of fashion words that are barely used anymore but dont invent completly new words just or the rhyme.

I'm not sure where your doubt is coming from. My previous post illustrated that Old English - a real language - created vocabulary exclusively for poetry. Even Shakespeare, if you want to consider him a modern poet, invented scores of words for his own works. Is it so difficult to imagine that the dragon language, which was inspired by Old English, might also have vocabulary exclusive to poetry?

Poets in Old English invented words for the sake of alliteration. Dovahzul was inspired by Old English, so unsurprisingly it shares some characteristics, including words that are exclusive to poetry.

You seem to have a very firm grasp on the systemic aspects of language, and it would indeed be helpful if all languages were perfect, logical systems. I think a lot of your questions stem from the natural/developmental aspects of languages, things that don't fit your notion of the system.

I would highly recommend reading up on Old English or Icelandic, languages that inspired the dragon language, or even general linguistics. I have some books I could recommend. Any decent linguistics source will cover not just the systemic aspects of language, but the sociology, culture, developmental history behind languages that most of your questions seem to come from.

by paarthurnax
May 10, 2015
Orkar Isber

Therefore i doubt that you would create new words solely for poetic purpose, so that stuff rhymes. Modern poetrists use old words, out of fashion words that are barely used anymore but dont invent completly new words just or the rhyme.

I'm not sure where your doubt is coming from. My previous post illustrated that Old English - a real language - created vocabulary exclusively for poetry. Even Shakespeare, if you want to consider him a modern poet, invented scores of words for his own works. Is it so difficult to imagine that the dragon language, which was inspired by Old English, might also have vocabulary exclusive to poetry?

Poets in Old English invented words for the sake of alliteration. Dovahzul was inspired by Old English, so unsurprisingly it shares some characteristics, including words that are exclusive to poetry.

You seem to have a very firm grasp on the systemic aspects of language, and it would indeed be helpful if all languages were perfect, logical systems. I think a lot of your questions stem from the natural/developmental aspects of languages, things that don't fit your notion of the system.

I would highly recommend reading up on Old English or Icelandic, languages that inspired the dragon language, or even general linguistics. I have some books I could recommend. Any decent linguistics source will cover not just the systemic aspects of language, but the sociology, culture, developmental history behind languages that most of your questions seem to come from.


gtfobro
May 10, 2015

Ah here we go, "origins will remain constant, but meanings will always change" would condense all that to a point xD

 BUT, now I see we're getting back to the point. Maybe you wouldn't make two words for one thing, but Bethesda did. Whether that was a mistake or not, it's there and they did it more than once. I found they did it with the word Beast - Sinvaak and Sunvaar, but they're implying they have different connotations, just like for Shul and Krein.  I'm comfortable enough knowing shul is closer to 'sunfire' and krein is closer to 'sunpower' or just 'sun' even. With Unslaad and Unahzaal, I'm not so sure, both mean ceaseless or unending and I'm not sure about the connotations to use them in haha.

Dovahzul is supposed to be unchanging, yes, but even now I still question that. Dragonborn is dovahkiin, but dov ah kiin is dragonkind hunter born - which is roughly 'born hunter of dragonkind' or even "born to dragonkind that hunts." But it's still Dragonborn, describing those who have the Dragon Blood, or the inborn gift, etc. You can make a distinction all you want, but they can still potentially mean different things for the same words. Wouldn't that be considered change on the account of the those who possess the Dragon Blood?

I would also like to Dovahzul more commonly used. I'm personally more into the writing the runes, but it would still be cool to communicate with others. Dovahzul is a rather nice sounding language, and I think it's simple to understand.

Hmm... What is linguistic detail to you?

edit: sorry for late, I'm working on other things at the same time haha

by gtfobro
May 10, 2015

Ah here we go, "origins will remain constant, but meanings will always change" would condense all that to a point xD

 BUT, now I see we're getting back to the point. Maybe you wouldn't make two words for one thing, but Bethesda did. Whether that was a mistake or not, it's there and they did it more than once. I found they did it with the word Beast - Sinvaak and Sunvaar, but they're implying they have different connotations, just like for Shul and Krein.  I'm comfortable enough knowing shul is closer to 'sunfire' and krein is closer to 'sunpower' or just 'sun' even. With Unslaad and Unahzaal, I'm not so sure, both mean ceaseless or unending and I'm not sure about the connotations to use them in haha.

Dovahzul is supposed to be unchanging, yes, but even now I still question that. Dragonborn is dovahkiin, but dov ah kiin is dragonkind hunter born - which is roughly 'born hunter of dragonkind' or even "born to dragonkind that hunts." But it's still Dragonborn, describing those who have the Dragon Blood, or the inborn gift, etc. You can make a distinction all you want, but they can still potentially mean different things for the same words. Wouldn't that be considered change on the account of the those who possess the Dragon Blood?

I would also like to Dovahzul more commonly used. I'm personally more into the writing the runes, but it would still be cool to communicate with others. Dovahzul is a rather nice sounding language, and I think it's simple to understand.

Hmm... What is linguistic detail to you?

edit: sorry for late, I'm working on other things at the same time haha


Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

The fun fact is that i teach old norse (and therefore am quite good at icelandic) and that indeed linguistics is my hobby. (comparative linguistivs mainly) 

And as said, yes words were invented but not ONLY for the sake pf poetry. Take Dickens and his fellow who made a "poetry duell" who could create the most new english words. The intention of creating words was indeed rhyme and later on the contest but the words really were new words not invented synonyms. They added new words to english that had no english word for them before. Some were invented as slang words for special characters in their stories and slang words usually derive from actual words rather than being totally made up.

Its really extremely rare that 1 thing has 2 different words for it, in all cases i can think of either the 2 words come from different languages OR really describe 2 different, yet similiar, things.

And dovahzul as you said, is meant to be unchanging, eternal. That means there wont be new words added later on for the sake of poetry - the language started and never changed since, as language of the aedra and the fantasy background we can assume that really is how it happened. Akathosh made it up and said this language will be the same for eternity.

I dont know enough on old english poetry to be certain there but i cant think of making up totally new words just for a rhyme - a poet wants to transfer a meaning. if its just about rhyme i could go "trk zrk prk, klk!" and declare these are now english words that mean "i can rhyme, really!" and i doubt that would have any impact on the english language. Dickens had as his books spread far and wide and the words were very characteristic - and they were not create for rhyme.

Also from a language of divine beings i would expect some logic behind it ^^

@gtfobro Yes Bethesda did but that is a lame explanation for a language that is supposed to be divine, eternal and powerfull. Yes ultimately Dovahzul is as it is because unprofessional amateurs gave up on creating a complex language. But while this is the simple truth, isnt it worth the effort to get some "in game explanation" for it? 

I am trying to get into the mind of a dov, not just into the mind of a bethesda guy. Id like the language to become alive, and in itself complete and logical. Just like people speaking sindarin try to get into the mind of the elfs and not of Tolkien. And if there were errors made in the creation, they should be corrected or explained satisfactory. 

As said if 2 words are seemingly the same like shul and krein and bethesda seemingly didnt think about it...why not CREATE a difference that makes sense? i think its a good idea to do so. Sinvaak could be a beast like a monster and sunvaar could be a beast in terms of a wild animal.

unslaad could be ceaseless and Unahzaal unending - there is a difference, anyone who is into WoW lore will know it is a huge difference if you are undead or undying. To an uninformed outsider that may be the same, but the difference is pretty much as big as male and female. Just like magic, sorcery and magick are 3 very different things for modern occultists.

 

paarthurnax explained to me that dov - ah is different from dovah just like car ist not a carpet. so dovah-kiin and not dov-ah-kiin. same sound different meaning. a carpet is not a small car that you gotta feed and walk like a dog.

But the fun part is that dov-ah-kiin actually does make more sense for the skyrim guy as he really hunts dov and is born to hunt dov. However previous dragonborn did not hunt dov, like Talos or Cyrodiil so the hunting dov thing really just applies to the last dragonborn not all of them therefore dov-ah-kiin seems to be wrong.

But i would have prefered another term than "dragonchild" dragonsoul, dragonblood or dragonkin makes more sense than dragonborn / dragonchild in my mind. He/she was seemingly not given birth by a dragon

 

linguistic detail....like why do we use word A in this case and word B in that case like with fin and faal. Like an examination what words actually mean - as paarthurnax said "ah" does not simply mean hunter hunter is merely the closest english translation.

From my language knowledge i can see that very well, translating a text will change its meaning, there is no other way. Each language is based on the mindest of its speakers and since a different people have a different mindest you simply can not translate a text without changing its meaning. That is why many religious people demand you gotta read the qran in arabic or the bible in greek, translations simply do change the text.

As example the english word mind is a word that encompasses about 50 german words. Germans translating "mind" have to sacrifice 49 meanings of mind in favor of one, making 49 mistakes in a single word. 

 

Details are also like whats the difference between shul and krein, or why does grammar rule x apply in situation a but not in b. Real languages have changes that we know of and can explain, and trace back to a degree we can reconstruct languages of which we have no written evidence at all. Yes first its important to create new words, grammar and make dovahzul better known and consistant in its sounds so the details of linguistics dont really matter much for now but i think its still important in the long run

 

by Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

The fun fact is that i teach old norse (and therefore am quite good at icelandic) and that indeed linguistics is my hobby. (comparative linguistivs mainly) 

And as said, yes words were invented but not ONLY for the sake pf poetry. Take Dickens and his fellow who made a "poetry duell" who could create the most new english words. The intention of creating words was indeed rhyme and later on the contest but the words really were new words not invented synonyms. They added new words to english that had no english word for them before. Some were invented as slang words for special characters in their stories and slang words usually derive from actual words rather than being totally made up.

Its really extremely rare that 1 thing has 2 different words for it, in all cases i can think of either the 2 words come from different languages OR really describe 2 different, yet similiar, things.

And dovahzul as you said, is meant to be unchanging, eternal. That means there wont be new words added later on for the sake of poetry - the language started and never changed since, as language of the aedra and the fantasy background we can assume that really is how it happened. Akathosh made it up and said this language will be the same for eternity.

I dont know enough on old english poetry to be certain there but i cant think of making up totally new words just for a rhyme - a poet wants to transfer a meaning. if its just about rhyme i could go "trk zrk prk, klk!" and declare these are now english words that mean "i can rhyme, really!" and i doubt that would have any impact on the english language. Dickens had as his books spread far and wide and the words were very characteristic - and they were not create for rhyme.

Also from a language of divine beings i would expect some logic behind it ^^

@gtfobro Yes Bethesda did but that is a lame explanation for a language that is supposed to be divine, eternal and powerfull. Yes ultimately Dovahzul is as it is because unprofessional amateurs gave up on creating a complex language. But while this is the simple truth, isnt it worth the effort to get some "in game explanation" for it? 

I am trying to get into the mind of a dov, not just into the mind of a bethesda guy. Id like the language to become alive, and in itself complete and logical. Just like people speaking sindarin try to get into the mind of the elfs and not of Tolkien. And if there were errors made in the creation, they should be corrected or explained satisfactory. 

As said if 2 words are seemingly the same like shul and krein and bethesda seemingly didnt think about it...why not CREATE a difference that makes sense? i think its a good idea to do so. Sinvaak could be a beast like a monster and sunvaar could be a beast in terms of a wild animal.

unslaad could be ceaseless and Unahzaal unending - there is a difference, anyone who is into WoW lore will know it is a huge difference if you are undead or undying. To an uninformed outsider that may be the same, but the difference is pretty much as big as male and female. Just like magic, sorcery and magick are 3 very different things for modern occultists.

 

paarthurnax explained to me that dov - ah is different from dovah just like car ist not a carpet. so dovah-kiin and not dov-ah-kiin. same sound different meaning. a carpet is not a small car that you gotta feed and walk like a dog.

But the fun part is that dov-ah-kiin actually does make more sense for the skyrim guy as he really hunts dov and is born to hunt dov. However previous dragonborn did not hunt dov, like Talos or Cyrodiil so the hunting dov thing really just applies to the last dragonborn not all of them therefore dov-ah-kiin seems to be wrong.

But i would have prefered another term than "dragonchild" dragonsoul, dragonblood or dragonkin makes more sense than dragonborn / dragonchild in my mind. He/she was seemingly not given birth by a dragon

 

linguistic detail....like why do we use word A in this case and word B in that case like with fin and faal. Like an examination what words actually mean - as paarthurnax said "ah" does not simply mean hunter hunter is merely the closest english translation.

From my language knowledge i can see that very well, translating a text will change its meaning, there is no other way. Each language is based on the mindest of its speakers and since a different people have a different mindest you simply can not translate a text without changing its meaning. That is why many religious people demand you gotta read the qran in arabic or the bible in greek, translations simply do change the text.

As example the english word mind is a word that encompasses about 50 german words. Germans translating "mind" have to sacrifice 49 meanings of mind in favor of one, making 49 mistakes in a single word. 

 

Details are also like whats the difference between shul and krein, or why does grammar rule x apply in situation a but not in b. Real languages have changes that we know of and can explain, and trace back to a degree we can reconstruct languages of which we have no written evidence at all. Yes first its important to create new words, grammar and make dovahzul better known and consistant in its sounds so the details of linguistics dont really matter much for now but i think its still important in the long run

 


gtfobro
May 10, 2015

(quick post before I get going for now~)

So aside from the potentially unneeded complications, is there any agreement of what shul and krein would be? Might as well get something established rather than discuss what already is and isn't. Not everything is logical, my friend. ~woosh words of wisdom woosh~  Even divinity is full of fools. (greek gods, for example)

(aaand good night zzzz)

by gtfobro
May 10, 2015

(quick post before I get going for now~)

So aside from the potentially unneeded complications, is there any agreement of what shul and krein would be? Might as well get something established rather than discuss what already is and isn't. Not everything is logical, my friend. ~woosh words of wisdom woosh~  Even divinity is full of fools. (greek gods, for example)

(aaand good night zzzz)


paarthurnax
Administrator
May 10, 2015

It's noted that shul likely derives from sul "day," and is more closely associated with daylight, heat, or fire, as it also appears in the Fire Breath Shout. Krein, on the other hand, is more likely tied to the celestial object, but still has connotations of power.

Something to understand about the "timelessness" of the dragon language is that it is retroactively eternal. This relates to the nature of dragons themselves. Akatosh was created in something called the Marukhati Selective, where he was split from the Aka oversoul. Once Akatosh, and subsequently, the dragons, came into existence, it was as though they had always existed.

This also extends to the language. It can change. New words can be created. But those changes stretch back to the beginning of time. When a dragon has a need to concentrate the meaning of "hunter" into a Shout, and conjures the sound of ah, it's as though ah was always a word in the language. This is important to understand once the Nords get their grubby hands on it. They like to lean on the language as a source of authority, and because they're human, they make mistakes.

by paarthurnax
May 10, 2015

It's noted that shul likely derives from sul "day," and is more closely associated with daylight, heat, or fire, as it also appears in the Fire Breath Shout. Krein, on the other hand, is more likely tied to the celestial object, but still has connotations of power.

Something to understand about the "timelessness" of the dragon language is that it is retroactively eternal. This relates to the nature of dragons themselves. Akatosh was created in something called the Marukhati Selective, where he was split from the Aka oversoul. Once Akatosh, and subsequently, the dragons, came into existence, it was as though they had always existed.

This also extends to the language. It can change. New words can be created. But those changes stretch back to the beginning of time. When a dragon has a need to concentrate the meaning of "hunter" into a Shout, and conjures the sound of ah, it's as though ah was always a word in the language. This is important to understand once the Nords get their grubby hands on it. They like to lean on the language as a source of authority, and because they're human, they make mistakes.


Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

would it be possible to create a dictionary that doesnt only provide the "direct" translation but also "etymology" and the MEANING behind it? Just like stuff related to darkness all have vul in them

by Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

would it be possible to create a dictionary that doesnt only provide the "direct" translation but also "etymology" and the MEANING behind it? Just like stuff related to darkness all have vul in them


paarthurnax
Administrator
May 10, 2015
Orkar Isber

would it be possible to create a dictionary that doesnt only provide the "direct" translation but also "etymology" and the MEANING behind it? Just like stuff related to darkness all have vul in them

These are already described in the dictionary through root words and word notes, as you can see here with vulom. A dictionary with expanded definitions/connotations would be possible.

by paarthurnax
May 10, 2015
Orkar Isber

would it be possible to create a dictionary that doesnt only provide the "direct" translation but also "etymology" and the MEANING behind it? Just like stuff related to darkness all have vul in them

These are already described in the dictionary through root words and word notes, as you can see here with vulom. A dictionary with expanded definitions/connotations would be possible.


Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

id love that. to get deeper into the mindset of the language. As a language learner i think that, to really understand a language and use it correctly, you need to inherit the mindset of its speakers. The more you become accustomed to the mindset of the language the easier you will grasp it. Thats just my oppinion but for me it works well

by Orkar Isber
May 10, 2015

id love that. to get deeper into the mindset of the language. As a language learner i think that, to really understand a language and use it correctly, you need to inherit the mindset of its speakers. The more you become accustomed to the mindset of the language the easier you will grasp it. Thats just my oppinion but for me it works well


Orkar Isber
June 2, 2015

Regarding the mindset how did they come up with the word for sisterhood? 

briinah - sister maar - terror???

So having terror with your sisters equals sisterhood? I got a slightly different view how sisterhood works. Ok university sisterhoods can be terror but overall sisterhood is a positive thing and terror is a negative thing no?^^

by Orkar Isber
June 2, 2015

Regarding the mindset how did they come up with the word for sisterhood? 

briinah - sister maar - terror???

So having terror with your sisters equals sisterhood? I got a slightly different view how sisterhood works. Ok university sisterhoods can be terror but overall sisterhood is a positive thing and terror is a negative thing no?^^


paarthurnax
Administrator
June 2, 2015
Orkar Isber

Regarding the mindset how did they come up with the word for sisterhood? 

briinah - sister maar - terror???

So having terror with your sisters equals sisterhood? I got a slightly different view how sisterhood works. Ok university sisterhoods can be terror but overall sisterhood is a positive thing and terror is a negative thing no?^^

The maar in briinahmaar is likely unrelated to the word maar "terror". It's a suffix of some kind, likely also found in nimaar "itself". Another example would be the suffix -us, as found in odus "snowy" and motmahus "slippery," that is entirely unrelated to the word us "before."

by paarthurnax
June 2, 2015
Orkar Isber

Regarding the mindset how did they come up with the word for sisterhood? 

briinah - sister maar - terror???

So having terror with your sisters equals sisterhood? I got a slightly different view how sisterhood works. Ok university sisterhoods can be terror but overall sisterhood is a positive thing and terror is a negative thing no?^^

The maar in briinahmaar is likely unrelated to the word maar "terror". It's a suffix of some kind, likely also found in nimaar "itself". Another example would be the suffix -us, as found in odus "snowy" and motmahus "slippery," that is entirely unrelated to the word us "before."


Orkar Isber
June 3, 2015

While that totally explains it it is confusing. I guess i got too used to compound words

by Orkar Isber
June 3, 2015

While that totally explains it it is confusing. I guess i got too used to compound words

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