Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Need Help for Word HEART

 1 

Mystery
March 5, 2019

Hello Folks!

So I've tried for a while now to find the right translation for the word "Heart", but it seems like there is no such word in Dovahzul.

The translator on Thuum.org led me to the word "Sil", but this word's meaning is "Soul", which is definitely not the same thing. To quote the dictionary:

Sil
n. soul; character, nature; life
Specifically refers to souls in the afterlife. Generally should not be used in reference to dragons. Contrast with zii ‘spirit’ which more closely refers to living souls (such as the soul of a living person or dragon).
From English ‘soul’. Refers to literal souls, but also used to refer to character or nature (dwiin-sil ‘steel-souled’) or one’s life (ofan ok sil ‘to give his soul’). Not to be confused with the close homophone ziil ‘your spirit’.

I'm not talking about the Soul, neither the Spirit, nor the Character of a person or Dragon.

In all Dovahzul dictionaries and translators I've found, none but Thuum.org seems to have any translation for this word, and the latter example leads to the wrong word.
Also, I tried to figure out how the Dragon Alphabet works, so I could just figure the right translation out myself, but it seems to not be as simple and easy as I hoped...

I understand it's difficult to have an understanding of such a word for such a being like a Dragon, considering how ego-driven such a species appears to be and how said species even desires the enslavement of all mortal beings...
But lets assume, just for a moment, such a Dragon like Paarthurnax, who overcame his evil nature with great effort, would eventually bring forth a lineage of descendants who, eventually, would understand a deeper meaning of the word "Heart"... It must be possible to establish such a word, right?

But let's start simple... How would a Dovah describe a "Deadric Heart" or a "Human Heart" (alchemical items)?

How would they be able to talk about what happens in the Hearts of Mankind?
As an example: On Emblem III, on the way to the Throat of the World, it is written: »The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old Times; Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices; But the Dragons only shouted them down and broke their hearts«
How would Dragons talk among themselves about them breaking Men's hearts?

But eventually, I'd like to get to the point where one can talk about...
The Heart of a Dragon.
In a deeper sense.

I'd be very thankful for any constructive and useful comment and/or input.

by Mystery
March 5, 2019

Hello Folks!

So I've tried for a while now to find the right translation for the word "Heart", but it seems like there is no such word in Dovahzul.

The translator on Thuum.org led me to the word "Sil", but this word's meaning is "Soul", which is definitely not the same thing. To quote the dictionary:

Sil
n. soul; character, nature; life
Specifically refers to souls in the afterlife. Generally should not be used in reference to dragons. Contrast with zii ‘spirit’ which more closely refers to living souls (such as the soul of a living person or dragon).
From English ‘soul’. Refers to literal souls, but also used to refer to character or nature (dwiin-sil ‘steel-souled’) or one’s life (ofan ok sil ‘to give his soul’). Not to be confused with the close homophone ziil ‘your spirit’.

I'm not talking about the Soul, neither the Spirit, nor the Character of a person or Dragon.

In all Dovahzul dictionaries and translators I've found, none but Thuum.org seems to have any translation for this word, and the latter example leads to the wrong word.
Also, I tried to figure out how the Dragon Alphabet works, so I could just figure the right translation out myself, but it seems to not be as simple and easy as I hoped...

I understand it's difficult to have an understanding of such a word for such a being like a Dragon, considering how ego-driven such a species appears to be and how said species even desires the enslavement of all mortal beings...
But lets assume, just for a moment, such a Dragon like Paarthurnax, who overcame his evil nature with great effort, would eventually bring forth a lineage of descendants who, eventually, would understand a deeper meaning of the word "Heart"... It must be possible to establish such a word, right?

But let's start simple... How would a Dovah describe a "Deadric Heart" or a "Human Heart" (alchemical items)?

How would they be able to talk about what happens in the Hearts of Mankind?
As an example: On Emblem III, on the way to the Throat of the World, it is written: »The fledgling spirits of Men were strong in Old Times; Unafraid to war with Dragons and their Voices; But the Dragons only shouted them down and broke their hearts«
How would Dragons talk among themselves about them breaking Men's hearts?

But eventually, I'd like to get to the point where one can talk about...
The Heart of a Dragon.
In a deeper sense.

I'd be very thankful for any constructive and useful comment and/or input.


Sonaak Kroinlah
March 5, 2019

This here is a classic example of gameplay vs lore. Lorewise dragons will have a word but in terms of what the game devs made and implemented there isn't one. There are many situations like this in Dovahzul and the only options are to describe something using different words we do have or to rephrase your sentence so as not to need them. There's also the option of using fanmade words but I wouldn't recommend it. Zii and sil do work for all but the physical sense of the word. Slen fah bo sos works but is too long, slensesos might work but is rather vague. Other members might have better ideas for that but I hope this helped.

by Sonaak Kroinlah
March 5, 2019

This here is a classic example of gameplay vs lore. Lorewise dragons will have a word but in terms of what the game devs made and implemented there isn't one. There are many situations like this in Dovahzul and the only options are to describe something using different words we do have or to rephrase your sentence so as not to need them. There's also the option of using fanmade words but I wouldn't recommend it. Zii and sil do work for all but the physical sense of the word. Slen fah bo sos works but is too long, slensesos might work but is rather vague. Other members might have better ideas for that but I hope this helped.


Mystery
March 7, 2019

Thank you very much for your constructive input, Sonaak Kroinlah! It's much appreciated!

I did check out your suggestions, however, they are still very physical, very fleshy and meaty.

Zii and Sil are indeed pointing towards something deeper, within, but the former stands rather for spirit, living soul, and the latter for souls in the afterlife, though it can also mean character or nature. Seeing as feeling and living with the heart is not a 'quality' of a Dragon's nature (at least in our Skyrim lore), this does not quite fit either.

Eventually, I was looking for something deeper. Like speaking out what's happening in our hearts, or how one feels in one's heart - a very well known 'quality' of man(kind).
To elaborate my previous example of a "new" kind of lineage of Dragons, leaving their evil nature behind and understanding their own heart as part of their being better, imagine the following scenario:

A Dragon from said "new" lineage - seeing other Dragons, who did not yet evolve towards leaving their evil nature behind, torturing mortal beings yet again (story repeating) - speaking out from their heart: »My heart feels nothing but remorse«, for various reasons, like the injustice happening to the mortals and feeling compassion for them, as well as the fact that "they" managed to grow within, to even be capable of feeling compassion so deeply, while their "brothers" still remain in that old "state of mind", and appear to be lost in it (not even understanding what compassion (espacially for mortals and non-dragons) means).

Eventually, I'm trying to find a word for THAT "human heart"-like thing, which is not the physical thing, but the inner thing that hurts, for example when we see bad things happening to others, espacially friends or families.

Or here's another idea: Like the Dragonrend Shout, which gives Dragons a taste of mortality and which a Dragon's mind can't even understand, let's assume the human Tongues would create a Shout to give Dragons a taste of the enourmous Heart ache they created onto men (Emblem III, cited above), so you'd need to adress THAT (the deeper sense of heart). Not the spirit, not the soul, nor the character or nature - no, exactly THAT. It's not supposed to hurt the soul or the spirit, not adress the character or the nature, but their Heart, deep within, so that they would get a taste of the pain they inflicted on humankind by breaking their hearts.

I'd be very thankful and would appreciate it a lot if this discussion could go on, and more constructive ideas and inputs could follow.

by Mystery
March 7, 2019

Thank you very much for your constructive input, Sonaak Kroinlah! It's much appreciated!

I did check out your suggestions, however, they are still very physical, very fleshy and meaty.

Zii and Sil are indeed pointing towards something deeper, within, but the former stands rather for spirit, living soul, and the latter for souls in the afterlife, though it can also mean character or nature. Seeing as feeling and living with the heart is not a 'quality' of a Dragon's nature (at least in our Skyrim lore), this does not quite fit either.

Eventually, I was looking for something deeper. Like speaking out what's happening in our hearts, or how one feels in one's heart - a very well known 'quality' of man(kind).
To elaborate my previous example of a "new" kind of lineage of Dragons, leaving their evil nature behind and understanding their own heart as part of their being better, imagine the following scenario:

A Dragon from said "new" lineage - seeing other Dragons, who did not yet evolve towards leaving their evil nature behind, torturing mortal beings yet again (story repeating) - speaking out from their heart: »My heart feels nothing but remorse«, for various reasons, like the injustice happening to the mortals and feeling compassion for them, as well as the fact that "they" managed to grow within, to even be capable of feeling compassion so deeply, while their "brothers" still remain in that old "state of mind", and appear to be lost in it (not even understanding what compassion (espacially for mortals and non-dragons) means).

Eventually, I'm trying to find a word for THAT "human heart"-like thing, which is not the physical thing, but the inner thing that hurts, for example when we see bad things happening to others, espacially friends or families.

Or here's another idea: Like the Dragonrend Shout, which gives Dragons a taste of mortality and which a Dragon's mind can't even understand, let's assume the human Tongues would create a Shout to give Dragons a taste of the enourmous Heart ache they created onto men (Emblem III, cited above), so you'd need to adress THAT (the deeper sense of heart). Not the spirit, not the soul, nor the character or nature - no, exactly THAT. It's not supposed to hurt the soul or the spirit, not adress the character or the nature, but their Heart, deep within, so that they would get a taste of the pain they inflicted on humankind by breaking their hearts.

I'd be very thankful and would appreciate it a lot if this discussion could go on, and more constructive ideas and inputs could follow.


Sonaak Kroinlah
March 8, 2019

I would say to bear in mind that only so much progress can be made with dragons. Can they be peaceful? Yes. Can they gain a better understanding of their own emotions and others'? Also yes. Can they feel guilt? I believe so, yes. Will they ever be compassionate, empathetic beings? No. We are given unfortunately few opportunities to study the psycology and inner workings of a dragon's mind but my current examination would suggest they show only limited capacity for empathy. Developing their theory of mind skills will be the best course of action as this is an area where they can improve but the actual ability to feel for or with another cannot be learned, although if it's been suppressed they could make more progress here. Don't mistake lack of empathy for evil though. I'm confused now if we are discussing dragon psycology or dragon language.. No matter. This is a very interesting topic. :)

by Sonaak Kroinlah
March 8, 2019

I would say to bear in mind that only so much progress can be made with dragons. Can they be peaceful? Yes. Can they gain a better understanding of their own emotions and others'? Also yes. Can they feel guilt? I believe so, yes. Will they ever be compassionate, empathetic beings? No. We are given unfortunately few opportunities to study the psycology and inner workings of a dragon's mind but my current examination would suggest they show only limited capacity for empathy. Developing their theory of mind skills will be the best course of action as this is an area where they can improve but the actual ability to feel for or with another cannot be learned, although if it's been suppressed they could make more progress here. Don't mistake lack of empathy for evil though. I'm confused now if we are discussing dragon psycology or dragon language.. No matter. This is a very interesting topic. :)


Zinrahzul
March 12, 2019

Sonaak Kroinlah, psychology and culture are definitely intimate parts in a language. You can bet there'd be words for concepts dragons care for.

As for describing heart, I recommend looking up the symbolism for "heart" in many cultures. Here's one reference (Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart#Symbolism

The heart and mind can be similar in concept to some cultures. It would depend on the psychology and you both were talking about. It would certainly be useful to analyze the dialog from the two talking dragons (Paarthurnax and Odahviing) to see what the heart might hint to mean. Then we can go from there and form a concept we can understand in Dovahzul for "heart".

by Zinrahzul
March 12, 2019

Sonaak Kroinlah, psychology and culture are definitely intimate parts in a language. You can bet there'd be words for concepts dragons care for.

As for describing heart, I recommend looking up the symbolism for "heart" in many cultures. Here's one reference (Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart#Symbolism

The heart and mind can be similar in concept to some cultures. It would depend on the psychology and you both were talking about. It would certainly be useful to analyze the dialog from the two talking dragons (Paarthurnax and Odahviing) to see what the heart might hint to mean. Then we can go from there and form a concept we can understand in Dovahzul for "heart".


Drogaazpraan
March 23, 2019
Dragons are very philosophical creatures on Tamriel. I would imagine they would interpret the word heart as sil in the context you’re describing.

There is also the turn of phrase “heart of the matter.” The critical point of the discussion. In dovahzuul that would be something entirely separate since they don’t have a euphemism for spirit the same way humans do.
by Drogaazpraan
March 23, 2019
Dragons are very philosophical creatures on Tamriel. I would imagine they would interpret the word heart as sil in the context you’re describing.



There is also the turn of phrase “heart of the matter.” The critical point of the discussion. In dovahzuul that would be something entirely separate since they don’t have a euphemism for spirit the same way humans do.