Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Dragons or wyvern

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Mirkrilaar
Moderator
April 11, 2014

One of my friends just said that the dovah are not dovah, but cousins of the dovah race named the wyvern. What do you guys think?

by Mirkrilaar
April 11, 2014

One of my friends just said that the dovah are not dovah, but cousins of the dovah race named the wyvern. What do you guys think?


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 11, 2014

Dragons in the Elder Scrolls universe are two-legged. The distinction between "wyvern" and "dragon" only matters where dragons and wyverns coexist with one another.

The Elder Scrolls does not have four-legged dragons and never uses "wyvern" in reference to  its two-legged dragons. See Skyrim (of course), Nafalilargus in Redguard, and Akatosh himself as seen in Oblivion.

In the context of real-world mythologies, Elder Scrolls dragons are technically wyverns. In-universe, it is a pointless comparison because there are no four-legged dragons to distinguish dragon from wyvern. Thus, the Dov are dragons.

by paarthurnax
April 11, 2014

Dragons in the Elder Scrolls universe are two-legged. The distinction between "wyvern" and "dragon" only matters where dragons and wyverns coexist with one another.

The Elder Scrolls does not have four-legged dragons and never uses "wyvern" in reference to  its two-legged dragons. See Skyrim (of course), Nafalilargus in Redguard, and Akatosh himself as seen in Oblivion.

In the context of real-world mythologies, Elder Scrolls dragons are technically wyverns. In-universe, it is a pointless comparison because there are no four-legged dragons to distinguish dragon from wyvern. Thus, the Dov are dragons.


Mahlaansaviik
April 13, 2014

Yeah, I agree with what Paarthurnax said. Plus, in any work of fiction, it is ultimately up to the writers of what X is. It's true that the dovah are missing the Genre Consistency of what a dragon typically is, but because the writer says they are dragons, they ultimately are dragons.

So it really plays into the Our Dragons are Different trope. Kind of like how Vampires aren't supposed to sparkle in the sunlight.

by Mahlaansaviik
April 13, 2014

Yeah, I agree with what Paarthurnax said. Plus, in any work of fiction, it is ultimately up to the writers of what X is. It's true that the dovah are missing the Genre Consistency of what a dragon typically is, but because the writer says they are dragons, they ultimately are dragons.

So it really plays into the Our Dragons are Different trope. Kind of like how Vampires aren't supposed to sparkle in the sunlight.


Mulhahlor
April 14, 2014

Wyverns are generally accepted to be the ones with two legs, yes, but aren't wyverns (aka wind vipers) smaller than Skyrim's dragons?

by Mulhahlor
April 14, 2014

Wyverns are generally accepted to be the ones with two legs, yes, but aren't wyverns (aka wind vipers) smaller than Skyrim's dragons?


Mirkrilaar
Moderator
April 16, 2014
Mahlaansaviik

Yeah, I agree with what Paarthurnax said. Plus, in any work of fiction, it is ultimately up to the writers of what X is. It's true that the dovah are missing the Genre Consistency of what a dragon typically is, but because the writer says they are dragons, they ultimately are dragons.

So it really plays into the Our Dragons are Different trope. Kind of like how Vampires aren't supposed to sparkle in the sunlight.

Good one.

by Mirkrilaar
April 16, 2014
Mahlaansaviik

Yeah, I agree with what Paarthurnax said. Plus, in any work of fiction, it is ultimately up to the writers of what X is. It's true that the dovah are missing the Genre Consistency of what a dragon typically is, but because the writer says they are dragons, they ultimately are dragons.

So it really plays into the Our Dragons are Different trope. Kind of like how Vampires aren't supposed to sparkle in the sunlight.

Good one.


Mirkrilaar
Moderator
April 16, 2014
Mulhahlor

Wyverns are generally accepted to be the ones with two legs, yes, but aren't wyverns (aka wind vipers) smaller than Skyrim's dragons?

He said that wyverns are the Skyrim dragons and that if there was an actual dragon in Skyrim, it would be as large, as an example, as Rorikstead is wide and it would be nearly impossible to kill because of its size. it would kill you with one swing from its wings, but I can see where zeymah paarthurnax is coming from.

by Mirkrilaar
April 16, 2014
Mulhahlor

Wyverns are generally accepted to be the ones with two legs, yes, but aren't wyverns (aka wind vipers) smaller than Skyrim's dragons?

He said that wyverns are the Skyrim dragons and that if there was an actual dragon in Skyrim, it would be as large, as an example, as Rorikstead is wide and it would be nearly impossible to kill because of its size. it would kill you with one swing from its wings, but I can see where zeymah paarthurnax is coming from.


Mirkrilaar
Moderator
April 17, 2014

I told him about it, but being the stubborn person that he is, he is still going to call them wyverns, even thought in the Elder Scrolls universe, they are dovah. The guy is opinionated.

by Mirkrilaar
April 17, 2014

I told him about it, but being the stubborn person that he is, he is still going to call them wyverns, even thought in the Elder Scrolls universe, they are dovah. The guy is opinionated.


Mulhahlor
April 17, 2014

Question: Does Smaug from the new The Hobbit movie look like a gigantic Alduin? That dragon is massive, but only has two legs. Tell your friend that.

by Mulhahlor
April 17, 2014

Question: Does Smaug from the new The Hobbit movie look like a gigantic Alduin? That dragon is massive, but only has two legs. Tell your friend that.


Mahlaansaviik
April 17, 2014

Ask him to define what each of the two creatures are. Depending on his answer, you can show him his definitions of dragons and wyverns are wrong. (i.e. Chinese dragons don't have wings, Porunga from DBZ only has two arms, etc.) The definition is completely arbitrary and varies from culture to culture and from fiction to fiction.

If he claims that chinese dragons are not dragons, he probably isn't going to change his mind and would probably think all swans are white even when shown a black swan. It would be useless arguing with him at this point.

by Mahlaansaviik
April 17, 2014

Ask him to define what each of the two creatures are. Depending on his answer, you can show him his definitions of dragons and wyverns are wrong. (i.e. Chinese dragons don't have wings, Porunga from DBZ only has two arms, etc.) The definition is completely arbitrary and varies from culture to culture and from fiction to fiction.

If he claims that chinese dragons are not dragons, he probably isn't going to change his mind and would probably think all swans are white even when shown a black swan. It would be useless arguing with him at this point.


Mirkrilaar
Moderator
April 17, 2014
Mulhahlor

Question: Does Smaug from the new The Hobbit movie look like a gigantic Alduin? That dragon is massive, but only has two legs. Tell your friend that.

He stated that he looked like Vuthuryol (Dovah found in Blackreach) also said that he had four legs, not two. He said "In theaters he had four legs but in the extended edition they turned him into a giant wyvern."

by Mirkrilaar
April 17, 2014
Mulhahlor

Question: Does Smaug from the new The Hobbit movie look like a gigantic Alduin? That dragon is massive, but only has two legs. Tell your friend that.

He stated that he looked like Vuthuryol (Dovah found in Blackreach) also said that he had four legs, not two. He said "In theaters he had four legs but in the extended edition they turned him into a giant wyvern."


Mirkrilaar
Moderator
April 17, 2014

Here's what he said:

~~From my readings, I understand dragons have different colors which designate their power, attitude, magical ability, alignment and so forth and that wyrms also have color but it is less significant.

Drakes are smaller than dragons, but still fly and breath fire but have no magical abilities. Basically, Drakes are evil.

Wyrm/wyverns are more snake-like and will live in caves and mountains protecting their loot. I've also heard references to dragons doing this as well, but only in movies where the naming is simply used for convenience.

by Mirkrilaar
April 17, 2014

Here's what he said:

~~From my readings, I understand dragons have different colors which designate their power, attitude, magical ability, alignment and so forth and that wyrms also have color but it is less significant.

Drakes are smaller than dragons, but still fly and breath fire but have no magical abilities. Basically, Drakes are evil.

Wyrm/wyverns are more snake-like and will live in caves and mountains protecting their loot. I've also heard references to dragons doing this as well, but only in movies where the naming is simply used for convenience.


Mirkrilaar
Moderator
April 17, 2014

End result, he said he was correct in the real world, and I was correct In-universe.

by Mirkrilaar
April 17, 2014

End result, he said he was correct in the real world, and I was correct In-universe.


Mahlaansaviik
April 17, 2014
lorotonikaan
End result, he said he was correct in the real world, and I was correct In-universe.

But I don't see how skyrim's dragons don't fit his definition of a dragon. Based on his definition it seems like a Chinese dragon is closer to being a Wyrm than a Dovah is. What does it mean to be correct in the real world anyways?

by Mahlaansaviik
April 17, 2014
lorotonikaan
End result, he said he was correct in the real world, and I was correct In-universe.

But I don't see how skyrim's dragons don't fit his definition of a dragon. Based on his definition it seems like a Chinese dragon is closer to being a Wyrm than a Dovah is. What does it mean to be correct in the real world anyways?


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 17, 2014

I think the issue with this is that "dragon", "wyvern", "wyrm", and "drake" aren't concretely defined terms unless you're looking at a Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual. For example, Tolkien uses "dragon", "drake", and "worm" to refer to Smaug. These words mean whatever a specific author wants them to mean.

by paarthurnax
April 17, 2014

I think the issue with this is that "dragon", "wyvern", "wyrm", and "drake" aren't concretely defined terms unless you're looking at a Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual. For example, Tolkien uses "dragon", "drake", and "worm" to refer to Smaug. These words mean whatever a specific author wants them to mean.


Mirkrilaar
Moderator
April 17, 2014
Mahlaansaviik
lorotonikaan
End result, he said he was correct in the real world, and I was correct In-universe.

But I don't see how skyrim's dragons don't fit his definition of a dragon. Based on his definition it seems like a Chinese dragon is closer to being a Wyrm than a Dovah is. What does it mean to be correct in the real world anyways?

By his definiton, a dragon has four legs and is bigger than its cousin, the wyvern, which has four legs.

by Mirkrilaar
April 17, 2014
Mahlaansaviik
lorotonikaan
End result, he said he was correct in the real world, and I was correct In-universe.

But I don't see how skyrim's dragons don't fit his definition of a dragon. Based on his definition it seems like a Chinese dragon is closer to being a Wyrm than a Dovah is. What does it mean to be correct in the real world anyways?

By his definiton, a dragon has four legs and is bigger than its cousin, the wyvern, which has four legs.

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