Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Dragon shout questions

 1 

Orkar Isber
April 6, 2015

While reading a few questions came up you guys may be able to help me with:

Dragonshouts:

- mir vur shaan for battlefury - i can see why valor and inspire are used but loyal? wouldnt battle valor inspire make more sense? or fury valor inspire? why LOYAL?

- call dragon od ah viing. when there is a word for dragon or dragonkind wouldnt it make much more sense to use dov or dovah in a shout to call a dragon? ok a winged snow hunter in skyrim seems to be only a dragon but in theory it could also be an eagle or similiar bird...

- bend will gol hah dov ok dov can be a synonym for dominance though ofc using the word dominance seems more effective to me. but why gol? in all cultues i know of will is described as fiery so wouldnt make yol more sense than gol? 

-call of valor hun kaa zool never using the word valor or call. i can somewhat see the idea but hero champion legend could really mean a hell lot of stuff. it could be a shout to increase battle prowess, stamina, or my soccer skills oO

-clear skies lok vah koor...i see why lok is there but spring and summer? what has that to do with a clear sky? in special spring is usually a time of a lot of rain...wouldnt words like clear make more sense in the context? or something like clouds are gone? 

- dragon aspect. why wyrm? why not dovah? its like aspect of the wolf ending with pudle.

- drain vitality uses magicka as word? why not actually drain? like this stamina magicka health it could also be a shout to increase all those...its not saying anywhere how these attributes are used.

-  fire breath: wouldnt it make much more sense to use the word breath instead of sun? 

- slow time - time sand eternity sounds to me like stopping time completly or repeat a certain loop of time. again i am missing the word to slow. this way there is much interpretation possible and the outcome unpredictable

- soul tear: why zombie? i see essence and tear perfectly but zombie? wouldnt death, rend, spirit or something make much more sense?

- throw voice. fool? sounds like "hey 2 words are actually enough to express the idea" "yes but we always used 3 words" "Any idea what word we could use?" "No, lets use a radnom wor generator" how about actually using the word...throw. throw voice far. there you got it...fool ^^

-fus ro dah force push - i see that perfectly and its named that in star wars. why balance? OFF balance would make more sense. again sounds like 2 words were enough but they wanted to make it 3 somehow. i really dont see how balance works out there, there are many better choices that could have been made like force push throw 

some insight qwould be appreciated =)

 

by Orkar Isber
April 6, 2015

While reading a few questions came up you guys may be able to help me with:

Dragonshouts:

- mir vur shaan for battlefury - i can see why valor and inspire are used but loyal? wouldnt battle valor inspire make more sense? or fury valor inspire? why LOYAL?

- call dragon od ah viing. when there is a word for dragon or dragonkind wouldnt it make much more sense to use dov or dovah in a shout to call a dragon? ok a winged snow hunter in skyrim seems to be only a dragon but in theory it could also be an eagle or similiar bird...

- bend will gol hah dov ok dov can be a synonym for dominance though ofc using the word dominance seems more effective to me. but why gol? in all cultues i know of will is described as fiery so wouldnt make yol more sense than gol? 

-call of valor hun kaa zool never using the word valor or call. i can somewhat see the idea but hero champion legend could really mean a hell lot of stuff. it could be a shout to increase battle prowess, stamina, or my soccer skills oO

-clear skies lok vah koor...i see why lok is there but spring and summer? what has that to do with a clear sky? in special spring is usually a time of a lot of rain...wouldnt words like clear make more sense in the context? or something like clouds are gone? 

- dragon aspect. why wyrm? why not dovah? its like aspect of the wolf ending with pudle.

- drain vitality uses magicka as word? why not actually drain? like this stamina magicka health it could also be a shout to increase all those...its not saying anywhere how these attributes are used.

-  fire breath: wouldnt it make much more sense to use the word breath instead of sun? 

- slow time - time sand eternity sounds to me like stopping time completly or repeat a certain loop of time. again i am missing the word to slow. this way there is much interpretation possible and the outcome unpredictable

- soul tear: why zombie? i see essence and tear perfectly but zombie? wouldnt death, rend, spirit or something make much more sense?

- throw voice. fool? sounds like "hey 2 words are actually enough to express the idea" "yes but we always used 3 words" "Any idea what word we could use?" "No, lets use a radnom wor generator" how about actually using the word...throw. throw voice far. there you got it...fool ^^

-fus ro dah force push - i see that perfectly and its named that in star wars. why balance? OFF balance would make more sense. again sounds like 2 words were enough but they wanted to make it 3 somehow. i really dont see how balance works out there, there are many better choices that could have been made like force push throw 

some insight qwould be appreciated =)

 


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 6, 2015

Thanks for your questions, Orkar. I noticed in a previous post you mentioned that you haven't played Skyrim. It's not a problem, but will make some of these harder to explain. I would indeed recommend playing Skyrim to gain a better understanding of the language and the Shouts.

Dragon Shouts should not be interpreted in any literal or grammatical sense. Dragon Shouts strip meaning down the most base and simple form, and express it in three syllables. The exact effect of a Shout depends highly on the intention of the wielder. You ask why the Call of Valor Shout doesn't contain either "call" or "valor." Those all lie in the intention of the Shout.

This explanation should deal with most of your questions. Here are a few specific points:

@Battle Fury, loyalty is a very important concept to the Dov and the ancient Nords. Mir grants the effect of inspiring only those loyal to you in battle, rather than anyone who simply hears the Shout.

@Call Dragon, all dragon names are also Shouts. The name of the Shout is perhaps misleading. It can only be used to call Odahviing, so "Call Odahviing" would be a more accurate title. There is a second "Call Dragon" Shout that summons a dragon named Durnehviir, and likewise the words to that Shout are dur-neh-viir.

@Bend Will, this Shout was devised specifically by either Miraak or Hermaeus Mora. The first word of the Shout affects the All-Maker stones on Solstheim, hence gol. The second word of the Shout affects people, hence hah. The final word of the Shout allows you to dominate the mind of a dragon, hence dov.

@Drain Vitality, the first word of the Shout drains Stamina, the second drains Magicka, and the the third drains Health, hence gaan lah haas. As explained above, the effect of the Shout lies entirely in the intentions of the user. There could very well be a "Restore Vitality" Shout that uses the exact same words.

@Slow Time, again, this all boils down to intention. The individual words of a Dragon Shout should not be literally interpreted.

@Soul Tear, this Shout rips the soul from a target and turns them into a zombie that fights under your control.

@Unrelenting Force, a dragon in Skyrim explains the words of this Shout at length:

It is called 'Force' in your tongue. But as you push the world, so does the world push back. Think of the way force may be applied effortlessly. Imagine but a whisper pushing aside all in its path. That is 'Fus.' Let its meaning fill you. Su'um ahrk morah. You will push the world harder than it pushes back.

The "force" in Unrelenting Force must be focused in order to be wielded, or else you would be thrown back the same as your opponent.

by paarthurnax
April 6, 2015

Thanks for your questions, Orkar. I noticed in a previous post you mentioned that you haven't played Skyrim. It's not a problem, but will make some of these harder to explain. I would indeed recommend playing Skyrim to gain a better understanding of the language and the Shouts.

Dragon Shouts should not be interpreted in any literal or grammatical sense. Dragon Shouts strip meaning down the most base and simple form, and express it in three syllables. The exact effect of a Shout depends highly on the intention of the wielder. You ask why the Call of Valor Shout doesn't contain either "call" or "valor." Those all lie in the intention of the Shout.

This explanation should deal with most of your questions. Here are a few specific points:

@Battle Fury, loyalty is a very important concept to the Dov and the ancient Nords. Mir grants the effect of inspiring only those loyal to you in battle, rather than anyone who simply hears the Shout.

@Call Dragon, all dragon names are also Shouts. The name of the Shout is perhaps misleading. It can only be used to call Odahviing, so "Call Odahviing" would be a more accurate title. There is a second "Call Dragon" Shout that summons a dragon named Durnehviir, and likewise the words to that Shout are dur-neh-viir.

@Bend Will, this Shout was devised specifically by either Miraak or Hermaeus Mora. The first word of the Shout affects the All-Maker stones on Solstheim, hence gol. The second word of the Shout affects people, hence hah. The final word of the Shout allows you to dominate the mind of a dragon, hence dov.

@Drain Vitality, the first word of the Shout drains Stamina, the second drains Magicka, and the the third drains Health, hence gaan lah haas. As explained above, the effect of the Shout lies entirely in the intentions of the user. There could very well be a "Restore Vitality" Shout that uses the exact same words.

@Slow Time, again, this all boils down to intention. The individual words of a Dragon Shout should not be literally interpreted.

@Soul Tear, this Shout rips the soul from a target and turns them into a zombie that fights under your control.

@Unrelenting Force, a dragon in Skyrim explains the words of this Shout at length:

It is called 'Force' in your tongue. But as you push the world, so does the world push back. Think of the way force may be applied effortlessly. Imagine but a whisper pushing aside all in its path. That is 'Fus.' Let its meaning fill you. Su'um ahrk morah. You will push the world harder than it pushes back.

The "force" in Unrelenting Force must be focused in order to be wielded, or else you would be thrown back the same as your opponent.


Orkar Isber
April 6, 2015

Thank you a lot for your response, that made it clear.

So theoretically it is really a battle not of voice but willpower when dragons clash? I mean the voice therefore just becomes a tool, a verbalisation of the magic behind it, meaning the words itself dont have the power, the power is in the mind of the speaker. Which would explain why people need years to learn single shouts

On the other hand it would also mean that the actual verbalisation is not important at all and anything related to the idea you want to express would work.

One more noob question - is there a reason why some words that are related in meaning aint related in sound? hunt and hunter if i am correct, are quite different sounds in dovahzul while basicly the noun is just the person doing the verb. so if hunter is ah hunt would be...a? ^^

also short words do add some...interpretation errors. if i look at the workd dovah i see dov - dragonkind and ah - hunter. a hunter of dragons. or do - of - ah - hunt. a being of the hunt. 

or do - of - vah spring. so no dragons from summer - winter? 

it is a bit irritating that one word is made up of several other words that dont really relate to the actual word. is there a solution to these problems or just a "it is how it is, live with it" 

by Orkar Isber
April 6, 2015

Thank you a lot for your response, that made it clear.

So theoretically it is really a battle not of voice but willpower when dragons clash? I mean the voice therefore just becomes a tool, a verbalisation of the magic behind it, meaning the words itself dont have the power, the power is in the mind of the speaker. Which would explain why people need years to learn single shouts

On the other hand it would also mean that the actual verbalisation is not important at all and anything related to the idea you want to express would work.

One more noob question - is there a reason why some words that are related in meaning aint related in sound? hunt and hunter if i am correct, are quite different sounds in dovahzul while basicly the noun is just the person doing the verb. so if hunter is ah hunt would be...a? ^^

also short words do add some...interpretation errors. if i look at the workd dovah i see dov - dragonkind and ah - hunter. a hunter of dragons. or do - of - ah - hunt. a being of the hunt. 

or do - of - vah spring. so no dragons from summer - winter? 

it is a bit irritating that one word is made up of several other words that dont really relate to the actual word. is there a solution to these problems or just a "it is how it is, live with it" 


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 6, 2015

So theoretically it is really a battle not of voice but willpower when dragons clash? I mean the voice therefore just becomes a tool, a verbalisation of the magic behind it, meaning the words itself dont have the power, the power is in the mind of the speaker. Which would explain why people need years to learn single shouts

This is exactly it, the Thu'um is just an instrument of a deeper power.

From an external perspective, some words are different to accomodate the Shouts. For example, if the word for "hunter" has to be a Word of Power, then it must be one syllable. Similarly, the word for "destroyer" must also be one syllable if it's a Word of Power.

From an internal perspective, different languages relate words differently. For example, we might pause to wonder why in English the words "murder" and "kill" are unrelated, or the words "eat" and "food." Words in the dragon language have their own origins, and so relationships that may seem obvious to us in English may not be found here.

On a similar point, ah is to dovah as "car" is to "carpet." The dragon language does have a large number of compound words, but not every word is. Some words are simply unrelated. This is especially true in a language where spelling is phonetic, so the limited number of sounds and spellings naturally creates words that carry the same sounds and spellings.

by paarthurnax
April 6, 2015

So theoretically it is really a battle not of voice but willpower when dragons clash? I mean the voice therefore just becomes a tool, a verbalisation of the magic behind it, meaning the words itself dont have the power, the power is in the mind of the speaker. Which would explain why people need years to learn single shouts

This is exactly it, the Thu'um is just an instrument of a deeper power.

From an external perspective, some words are different to accomodate the Shouts. For example, if the word for "hunter" has to be a Word of Power, then it must be one syllable. Similarly, the word for "destroyer" must also be one syllable if it's a Word of Power.

From an internal perspective, different languages relate words differently. For example, we might pause to wonder why in English the words "murder" and "kill" are unrelated, or the words "eat" and "food." Words in the dragon language have their own origins, and so relationships that may seem obvious to us in English may not be found here.

On a similar point, ah is to dovah as "car" is to "carpet." The dragon language does have a large number of compound words, but not every word is. Some words are simply unrelated. This is especially true in a language where spelling is phonetic, so the limited number of sounds and spellings naturally creates words that carry the same sounds and spellings.


Orkar Isber
April 6, 2015

and thank you again that clears it up very well. though a car-pet would surely sell in MMOs ^^

by Orkar Isber
April 6, 2015

and thank you again that clears it up very well. though a car-pet would surely sell in MMOs ^^


Orkar Isber
April 26, 2015

There is still something bothering me.

 

As said its the topic of things with similiar meaning have very different sound. your exampe murder and kill describe 2 different actions, murder specificly is killing a being of the own species with full intent to do so, while a kill could be a hunter and prey, an accident and much more. however murder, to murder and murderer are clearly related as are kill, to kill and killer.

 

english is furthermore a mixed language - the word eat stems from germanic, the word food from germanic word for food for animals (german Futter) in other germanic languages these are clearly related like german "essen" (to eat) and "Essen" (food for humans)

The differences in english are easily explained as they stem from different languages like beef is from french beouf while cow is from germanic source (german kuh)

Just like Castle is latin and burg germanic or pork french and swine germanic.

 

In dovahzul we have one language that resisted (at least by far most) influences from time and outside world so such things should not happen.

Besides that, its just a thing of keeping a language simple and logical and the germanic languages are far on the irrational scale of real languages, turkish or chinese are much more logical languages.

it is just...i dont know any real language that would do such things (though ofc i dont know all 7200 of em)

 

And that brings me to the question - did the team creating dovahzul actually have professional linguists with them or was it more an unscientific try?

 

Dont get me wrong i love the language and im determined to learn it. Its just, id like to know what to expect and where the community may need to revise and correct the original source to make the language more realistic or what tools must be used in order to fix the issues

by Orkar Isber
April 26, 2015

There is still something bothering me.

 

As said its the topic of things with similiar meaning have very different sound. your exampe murder and kill describe 2 different actions, murder specificly is killing a being of the own species with full intent to do so, while a kill could be a hunter and prey, an accident and much more. however murder, to murder and murderer are clearly related as are kill, to kill and killer.

 

english is furthermore a mixed language - the word eat stems from germanic, the word food from germanic word for food for animals (german Futter) in other germanic languages these are clearly related like german "essen" (to eat) and "Essen" (food for humans)

The differences in english are easily explained as they stem from different languages like beef is from french beouf while cow is from germanic source (german kuh)

Just like Castle is latin and burg germanic or pork french and swine germanic.

 

In dovahzul we have one language that resisted (at least by far most) influences from time and outside world so such things should not happen.

Besides that, its just a thing of keeping a language simple and logical and the germanic languages are far on the irrational scale of real languages, turkish or chinese are much more logical languages.

it is just...i dont know any real language that would do such things (though ofc i dont know all 7200 of em)

 

And that brings me to the question - did the team creating dovahzul actually have professional linguists with them or was it more an unscientific try?

 

Dont get me wrong i love the language and im determined to learn it. Its just, id like to know what to expect and where the community may need to revise and correct the original source to make the language more realistic or what tools must be used in order to fix the issues


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 26, 2015

I think you are still looking at this from an English perspective. My point with "murder" and "kill" is that, because they are distinct words in English, you think of their meanings as separate. However, if in your language they were tightly related (as in Dovahzul krii and kriivah), you might pause to wonder why they are so different in English. The reason is, of course, that they come from different languages.

Just the same, because "hunt" and "hunter" are related in English, it's confusing to look at Dovahzul see why the words ah "hunter" and nir "to hunt" aren't related.

Pay no attention to the translations given for these words. They aren't true. They are closest English equivalents. Ah doesn't mean "hunter." Ah means ah. Don't attach the English word "hunter" to it; that forces all of the connotations and senses of the English word "hunter" onto a foreign word that does not have those connotations.

Once you break from that, it should be clearer why ah and nir are different. Dragon words have their own origins and meanings, and are not required to fit into a pattern one might try to apply when relying too much on the English translations given.

by paarthurnax
April 26, 2015

I think you are still looking at this from an English perspective. My point with "murder" and "kill" is that, because they are distinct words in English, you think of their meanings as separate. However, if in your language they were tightly related (as in Dovahzul krii and kriivah), you might pause to wonder why they are so different in English. The reason is, of course, that they come from different languages.

Just the same, because "hunt" and "hunter" are related in English, it's confusing to look at Dovahzul see why the words ah "hunter" and nir "to hunt" aren't related.

Pay no attention to the translations given for these words. They aren't true. They are closest English equivalents. Ah doesn't mean "hunter." Ah means ah. Don't attach the English word "hunter" to it; that forces all of the connotations and senses of the English word "hunter" onto a foreign word that does not have those connotations.

Once you break from that, it should be clearer why ah and nir are different. Dragon words have their own origins and meanings, and are not required to fit into a pattern one might try to apply when relying too much on the English translations given.


Orkar Isber
April 26, 2015

You indeed have the right to be called paarthurnax ^^ This answer was very wise and enlightened the topic to me. Thank you a lot for it.

 

Is there any way (besides listening to the ingame speeches again and again) to get more into the mindset of dov? 

by Orkar Isber
April 26, 2015

You indeed have the right to be called paarthurnax ^^ This answer was very wise and enlightened the topic to me. Thank you a lot for it.

 

Is there any way (besides listening to the ingame speeches again and again) to get more into the mindset of dov? 


Orkar Isber
April 28, 2015

And another question now that i do play the game:

 

It bothers may that gamewise, the Thuum work at the first word said. Like Fus - things start flying - ro dah. Or Fire breath or pretty much any word of power. You say the first word - things happen. The other 2 words are said when things already work which makes them look like being mere decoration. If i say Fus Ro Dah and things already fly when i say Fus...why even bother saying ro dah? Wouldnt Fus be enough already?

Which would mean that just any dovahzul word is a word of power, is a thuum if the intend is there. It seems the 3 word stuff is not a necessity but a habit. What do you think of that?

by Orkar Isber
April 28, 2015

And another question now that i do play the game:

 

It bothers may that gamewise, the Thuum work at the first word said. Like Fus - things start flying - ro dah. Or Fire breath or pretty much any word of power. You say the first word - things happen. The other 2 words are said when things already work which makes them look like being mere decoration. If i say Fus Ro Dah and things already fly when i say Fus...why even bother saying ro dah? Wouldnt Fus be enough already?

Which would mean that just any dovahzul word is a word of power, is a thuum if the intend is there. It seems the 3 word stuff is not a necessity but a habit. What do you think of that?


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 28, 2015
Orkar Isber

And another question now that i do play the game:

 

It bothers may that gamewise, the Thuum work at the first word said. Like Fus - things start flying - ro dah. Or Fire breath or pretty much any word of power. You say the first word - things happen. The other 2 words are said when things already work which makes them look like being mere decoration. If i say Fus Ro Dah and things already fly when i say Fus...why even bother saying ro dah? Wouldnt Fus be enough already?

Which would mean that just any dovahzul word is a word of power, is a thuum if the intend is there. It seems the 3 word stuff is not a necessity but a habit. What do you think of that?

You are right, any word can be a word of power. The difference between a regular word and a word of power is your understanding of it. The Greybeards may spend decades meditating on a single word to realize its true meaning. As the Dragonborn, that understanding comes naturally to you.

Each additional word "unlocks" a further power or effect. Don't pay too much attention to the system - it's just part of gameplay mechanics. You could hypothetically use dah before using fus, but it's a video game and you the player are bound to the gameplay.

by paarthurnax
April 28, 2015
Orkar Isber

And another question now that i do play the game:

 

It bothers may that gamewise, the Thuum work at the first word said. Like Fus - things start flying - ro dah. Or Fire breath or pretty much any word of power. You say the first word - things happen. The other 2 words are said when things already work which makes them look like being mere decoration. If i say Fus Ro Dah and things already fly when i say Fus...why even bother saying ro dah? Wouldnt Fus be enough already?

Which would mean that just any dovahzul word is a word of power, is a thuum if the intend is there. It seems the 3 word stuff is not a necessity but a habit. What do you think of that?

You are right, any word can be a word of power. The difference between a regular word and a word of power is your understanding of it. The Greybeards may spend decades meditating on a single word to realize its true meaning. As the Dragonborn, that understanding comes naturally to you.

Each additional word "unlocks" a further power or effect. Don't pay too much attention to the system - it's just part of gameplay mechanics. You could hypothetically use dah before using fus, but it's a video game and you the player are bound to the gameplay.


Raxvulnax
December 27, 2015
After reading through this thread, not only did I gain a lot better understanding of shouts, but Dovahzul in itself. To go along with that, you definitely are Paarthurnax. I knew you know a lot about the language, but for you to be able to explain and answer questions like a 1000+ year old dragon would, simply incredible.
by Raxvulnax
December 27, 2015
After reading through this thread, not only did I gain a lot better understanding of shouts, but Dovahzul in itself. To go along with that, you definitely are Paarthurnax. I knew you know a lot about the language, but for you to be able to explain and answer questions like a 1000+ year old dragon would, simply incredible.

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