Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Language Expansion?

 1 

Ultimist
July 5, 2013

In the language lessons section, under "What is the Dragon Language?" this site is described as being dedicated to the "expansion" of the language, etc...

Does this mean that this site will be making up its own words, grammar rules, or any other aspect of the language that are not officially created by the owners of the Elder Scrolls franchise? What I mean is, is this site going to be making up its own parts of the language? Not sure what else "expansion" could mean.

Personally I'd rather we stick with the canon. Probably won't visit this site again if it is going to be adding its own stuff to "expand" a language it didn't create and doesn't own.

It seems pointless to me to create new words that aren't canon. What happens if a bunch of work is done here by someone to create a host of new words, and then Bethesda comes out with a gaime or something else that establishes canonical versions of those words? That person's work is going to have to be discarded in favor of the canon, is it not? At least I hope that would be the case.

I'm not complaining in any way, about anything. I'm just struggling to understand the point of creating new things for the language when they could be rendered useless and pointless when the creators add to the canon.

Where there could be trouble is some future scenario in which new canon has been released that precludes certain words that were created by community members, and some people elect to stick with the user-created words and abandon the canon for whatever reason. This is how languages splinter and become diluted (and polluted) over time, as demonstrated throughout history.

(Edited several times after noticing the "Submit New Word" link.

by Ultimist
July 5, 2013

In the language lessons section, under "What is the Dragon Language?" this site is described as being dedicated to the "expansion" of the language, etc...

Does this mean that this site will be making up its own words, grammar rules, or any other aspect of the language that are not officially created by the owners of the Elder Scrolls franchise? What I mean is, is this site going to be making up its own parts of the language? Not sure what else "expansion" could mean.

Personally I'd rather we stick with the canon. Probably won't visit this site again if it is going to be adding its own stuff to "expand" a language it didn't create and doesn't own.

It seems pointless to me to create new words that aren't canon. What happens if a bunch of work is done here by someone to create a host of new words, and then Bethesda comes out with a gaime or something else that establishes canonical versions of those words? That person's work is going to have to be discarded in favor of the canon, is it not? At least I hope that would be the case.

I'm not complaining in any way, about anything. I'm just struggling to understand the point of creating new things for the language when they could be rendered useless and pointless when the creators add to the canon.

Where there could be trouble is some future scenario in which new canon has been released that precludes certain words that were created by community members, and some people elect to stick with the user-created words and abandon the canon for whatever reason. This is how languages splinter and become diluted (and polluted) over time, as demonstrated throughout history.

(Edited several times after noticing the "Submit New Word" link.


paarthurnax
Administrator
July 5, 2013

I can help answer this.  By expansion, we do mean creating our own parts of the language.  If it helps, think of it as a large-scale fanfiction.  For people who want to fluently use the language, there is not enough information in Skyrim for that to be possible, hence the "expansion" part.

Of course the canon is very important.  All of the canon information is here, and we go to great efforts to ensure that nothing we invent ever contradicts it.

There are other groups that stick solely to the canon.  I can gladly recommend you check out this Facebook group, which has a host of lessons and information of their own.  This site isn't for everyone, and there's no reason to accept our additions to the language if you don't want to.

by paarthurnax
July 5, 2013

I can help answer this.  By expansion, we do mean creating our own parts of the language.  If it helps, think of it as a large-scale fanfiction.  For people who want to fluently use the language, there is not enough information in Skyrim for that to be possible, hence the "expansion" part.

Of course the canon is very important.  All of the canon information is here, and we go to great efforts to ensure that nothing we invent ever contradicts it.

There are other groups that stick solely to the canon.  I can gladly recommend you check out this Facebook group, which has a host of lessons and information of their own.  This site isn't for everyone, and there's no reason to accept our additions to the language if you don't want to.


Ultimist
July 5, 2013

Thanks for your reply, paarthurnax. I appreciate it. I was in the middle of editing my post when you replied, I think.

I'm glad the canon is important here. I just see the possibility of some users electing to reject the canon in favor of non-canon material that they think sounds better, makes more sense, or for some other reason. Then the language starts splintering off in several directions, making it harder to manage.

by Ultimist
July 5, 2013

Thanks for your reply, paarthurnax. I appreciate it. I was in the middle of editing my post when you replied, I think.

I'm glad the canon is important here. I just see the possibility of some users electing to reject the canon in favor of non-canon material that they think sounds better, makes more sense, or for some other reason. Then the language starts splintering off in several directions, making it harder to manage.


paarthurnax
Administrator
July 5, 2013

Where there could be trouble is some future scenario in which new canon has been released that precludes certain words that were created by community members, and some people elect to stick with the user-created words and abandon the canon for whatever reason. This is how languages splinter and become diluted (and polluted) over time, as demonstrated throughout history.

We recently had a new set of canon words through the Legendary Edition of the Prima Official Game Guide, and indeed there were some conflicts with words we had created.  Luckily, all of these conflicts were resolved smoothly; our rule is always canon first.

Now that Bethesda is done with Skyrim and its DLC, it seems unlikely that new information about the Dragon Language will surface from them in the near future.  But if it does, we'd be more than happy to take it!

by paarthurnax
July 5, 2013

Where there could be trouble is some future scenario in which new canon has been released that precludes certain words that were created by community members, and some people elect to stick with the user-created words and abandon the canon for whatever reason. This is how languages splinter and become diluted (and polluted) over time, as demonstrated throughout history.

We recently had a new set of canon words through the Legendary Edition of the Prima Official Game Guide, and indeed there were some conflicts with words we had created.  Luckily, all of these conflicts were resolved smoothly; our rule is always canon first.

Now that Bethesda is done with Skyrim and its DLC, it seems unlikely that new information about the Dragon Language will surface from them in the near future.  But if it does, we'd be more than happy to take it!


Kenaar
July 7, 2013
Where there could be trouble is some future scenario in which new canon has been released that precludes certain words that were created by community members, and some people elect to stick with the user-created words and abandon the canon for whatever reason. This is how languages splinter and become diluted (and polluted) over time, as demonstrated throughout history.

Also had some thoughts and doubts like yours before becoming a member. But then, fortunately,  I've convinced of  fallibility of my worries. Paarthurnax has given you most information. So, what I wanted to add. Well, don't forget about synonyms - it's an important (in my opinion, even vital) part of practically every language. Quite many Dragonic words have 2, 3 or even 4 English words as a definition. Why can't the same situation be vice versa? And non-canon definition for English word can be an alternative to canon (still not always, in several cases). Of course, this definitions would be secondary and, as noted by Paarthurnax, canon equivalents would be always primary. This is all what I wanted to append, my other ideas Paarthurnax has mentioned (yes, I agree with him that another DLC unlikely to appear, none of their previous games had more DLC than Skyrim has. And Dragon language is unlikely to be used in next parts of the franchise)

by Kenaar
July 7, 2013
Where there could be trouble is some future scenario in which new canon has been released that precludes certain words that were created by community members, and some people elect to stick with the user-created words and abandon the canon for whatever reason. This is how languages splinter and become diluted (and polluted) over time, as demonstrated throughout history.

Also had some thoughts and doubts like yours before becoming a member. But then, fortunately,  I've convinced of  fallibility of my worries. Paarthurnax has given you most information. So, what I wanted to add. Well, don't forget about synonyms - it's an important (in my opinion, even vital) part of practically every language. Quite many Dragonic words have 2, 3 or even 4 English words as a definition. Why can't the same situation be vice versa? And non-canon definition for English word can be an alternative to canon (still not always, in several cases). Of course, this definitions would be secondary and, as noted by Paarthurnax, canon equivalents would be always primary. This is all what I wanted to append, my other ideas Paarthurnax has mentioned (yes, I agree with him that another DLC unlikely to appear, none of their previous games had more DLC than Skyrim has. And Dragon language is unlikely to be used in next parts of the franchise)

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