Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Conlangs & Dovahzul

 1 

Orkar Isber
April 26, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5mZ0R3h8m0

 

This is a quite good video about it and i would like what you think about it and where dovahzul stands right now.

My problem is that the video states some things that...are half true. In fact there are languages that BARELY changed in the last 1000 years. Icelandic as example mainly changed pronounciation and some grammatical endings like -r became -ur

By definition of language vs dialect, icelandic is a dialect of old norse, not a new language, while swedish or norwegian are indeed new languages. a person from iceland could have a conversation with a viking from 800 AD similiar to a british guy having a conversation with someone from australia.

For dovahzul and its recognition, its very logical that the language does NOT change over time as change in language is usually made by new generations creating their own words and pronounce things differently, in case of dovahzul there are no new generation that woud bring change as the old persist. if the saxons were immortal, we would not speak english but saxon.

Linguistically it is a problem to distinguish a dialect from a language and i dont know if there actually is a usefull rule set avalaiable, yet i can see different people pronouncing dovahzul differently and yet be "cannon" (as some youtubers who tried dovahzul stuff got shitstorms for pronouncing wrong) as different pronounciation is just an accent. do australiens speak english wrong? or do americans dont speak proper english because they pronounce it different than englishmen?

 

I would like to know what you think about dovahzul here - is it already a fully fledged conlang or do we need much more development - though, as said, i think we can legally leave out creating "ancient" dovahzul or dovahzul offshoots ^^

by Orkar Isber
April 26, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5mZ0R3h8m0

 

This is a quite good video about it and i would like what you think about it and where dovahzul stands right now.

My problem is that the video states some things that...are half true. In fact there are languages that BARELY changed in the last 1000 years. Icelandic as example mainly changed pronounciation and some grammatical endings like -r became -ur

By definition of language vs dialect, icelandic is a dialect of old norse, not a new language, while swedish or norwegian are indeed new languages. a person from iceland could have a conversation with a viking from 800 AD similiar to a british guy having a conversation with someone from australia.

For dovahzul and its recognition, its very logical that the language does NOT change over time as change in language is usually made by new generations creating their own words and pronounce things differently, in case of dovahzul there are no new generation that woud bring change as the old persist. if the saxons were immortal, we would not speak english but saxon.

Linguistically it is a problem to distinguish a dialect from a language and i dont know if there actually is a usefull rule set avalaiable, yet i can see different people pronouncing dovahzul differently and yet be "cannon" (as some youtubers who tried dovahzul stuff got shitstorms for pronouncing wrong) as different pronounciation is just an accent. do australiens speak english wrong? or do americans dont speak proper english because they pronounce it different than englishmen?

 

I would like to know what you think about dovahzul here - is it already a fully fledged conlang or do we need much more development - though, as said, i think we can legally leave out creating "ancient" dovahzul or dovahzul offshoots ^^


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 26, 2015

Pronunciation varies in-game between the different voice actors, and between the different language versions of the game. It's an unfortunate inconsistency to have to deal with, and there are various ways of explaining it in-universe. Unfortunately none of the explanations are very satisfactory for constructing the language itself. The pronunciations listed here are the "textbook" versions.

In-universe, the dragon language has probably changed very little over time, given that its speakers are immortal. Any new words that entered the language can likely be attributed to the ancient Nords and the contact dragons would have had with them.

From an outside perspective, the language is going to change a lot and has much further to go, especially in regards to invented words. Many invented words really do not fit the language, and it's a long and challenging task to go back and revise them.

by paarthurnax
April 26, 2015

Pronunciation varies in-game between the different voice actors, and between the different language versions of the game. It's an unfortunate inconsistency to have to deal with, and there are various ways of explaining it in-universe. Unfortunately none of the explanations are very satisfactory for constructing the language itself. The pronunciations listed here are the "textbook" versions.

In-universe, the dragon language has probably changed very little over time, given that its speakers are immortal. Any new words that entered the language can likely be attributed to the ancient Nords and the contact dragons would have had with them.

From an outside perspective, the language is going to change a lot and has much further to go, especially in regards to invented words. Many invented words really do not fit the language, and it's a long and challenging task to go back and revise them.


Orkar Isber
April 26, 2015

Do you have any...ruleset how dovahzul words should sound like? I only know it from a linguistical perspective that there are keys like endings, relation from consonants to vocals, certain letters more often used than others...

and from that key you can invent words that sound like they would be from the original language. if we could work out such a key for dovahzul it would be much easier inventing words that sound dovahzul

by Orkar Isber
April 26, 2015

Do you have any...ruleset how dovahzul words should sound like? I only know it from a linguistical perspective that there are keys like endings, relation from consonants to vocals, certain letters more often used than others...

and from that key you can invent words that sound like they would be from the original language. if we could work out such a key for dovahzul it would be much easier inventing words that sound dovahzul


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 26, 2015
Orkar Isber

Do you have any...ruleset how dovahzul words should sound like? I only know it from a linguistical perspective that there are keys like endings, relation from consonants to vocals, certain letters more often used than others...

Yes, the pronunciations listed on the alphabet page are the standard. There are many other spelling or pronunciation rules pertaining to word submissions. I may make a separate post on them at some point, but the general rule of thumb is that if a sound or spelling does not appear in canon, if should not appear in invented words.

by paarthurnax
April 26, 2015
Orkar Isber

Do you have any...ruleset how dovahzul words should sound like? I only know it from a linguistical perspective that there are keys like endings, relation from consonants to vocals, certain letters more often used than others...

Yes, the pronunciations listed on the alphabet page are the standard. There are many other spelling or pronunciation rules pertaining to word submissions. I may make a separate post on them at some point, but the general rule of thumb is that if a sound or spelling does not appear in canon, if should not appear in invented words.


Orkar Isber
April 30, 2015

Is there any information who exactly invented dovahzul? I mean Klingon as example was created by an actual linguist, same for navi and dothraki and i am just wondering how dovahzul came into being just do get an idea.

by Orkar Isber
April 30, 2015

Is there any information who exactly invented dovahzul? I mean Klingon as example was created by an actual linguist, same for navi and dothraki and i am just wondering how dovahzul came into being just do get an idea.


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 30, 2015

The dragon language was created by a team at Bethesda. This article will tell you more about it.

by paarthurnax
April 30, 2015

The dragon language was created by a team at Bethesda. This article will tell you more about it.


Orkar Isber
April 30, 2015

"An entire internal wiki at Bethesda contains an evolving vocabulary list of words and phrases used in the game – any new uses of the dragon language have to be checked back against this list for consistency. "

I guess they stopped working on that looong ago. I also dont know how much the reporter interpreted or left out in the article but from what it sounds like at least one of them had some decent language skills though seemingly none of them ever created a conlang before or had even basic ideas on how to do it so they ended up with...well what is there. And the way the article is written tells me that either the writer or the team doesnt really have an idea about linguistics either which is kinda sad. Not that you must b a linguist to create a language but i  hoped Bethesda would put more effort in something like that, detail is in my oppinion Bethesdas unique feature in the RPG world. 

Warcraft has no con lang at all - meaning as language, they just have a few words and phrases that allow for little atmosphere but it would be totally impossible to communicate in those and yet WoW has an even larger universe than TES.

A different approach was from Realms of Arkania - the developers there did it the easy way and implemented dead real life languages for their cultures like their viking style race actually does speak old norse like the vikings did. 

by Orkar Isber
April 30, 2015

"An entire internal wiki at Bethesda contains an evolving vocabulary list of words and phrases used in the game – any new uses of the dragon language have to be checked back against this list for consistency. "

I guess they stopped working on that looong ago. I also dont know how much the reporter interpreted or left out in the article but from what it sounds like at least one of them had some decent language skills though seemingly none of them ever created a conlang before or had even basic ideas on how to do it so they ended up with...well what is there. And the way the article is written tells me that either the writer or the team doesnt really have an idea about linguistics either which is kinda sad. Not that you must b a linguist to create a language but i  hoped Bethesda would put more effort in something like that, detail is in my oppinion Bethesdas unique feature in the RPG world. 

Warcraft has no con lang at all - meaning as language, they just have a few words and phrases that allow for little atmosphere but it would be totally impossible to communicate in those and yet WoW has an even larger universe than TES.

A different approach was from Realms of Arkania - the developers there did it the easy way and implemented dead real life languages for their cultures like their viking style race actually does speak old norse like the vikings did. 

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