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A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Thuum.org

A community for the dragon language of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim

Who else thinks we don't need possessive pronouns?

 1 

Foduiiz
April 20, 2014

Mine  Yours  His  Hers  Its  Theirs  Ours  Yours(pl.)

Recently I've been thinking about the significance of these words and if they're even necessary for the language to work. I think they could be ignored and instead be derived from context while instead using a possessive determiner (your  his  her  its  their  our  your (pl.))

Here are some examples:

The sword is her (the sword is hers)  ->  Zahkrii los ek (Zahkrii los ekah)

The honour is our (the honour is ours) ->  Zin los un (Zin los unah)

Victory is their (Victory is theirs) ->  Kongrah los niist (Kongrah los niistah)

 

Of course there will be situations where the difference will need to be clarified and in that case the possessive pronoun would be very useful but for a language designed to be brief and relying heavily on context it makes sense to do this in my mind.  Also don't forget that the only canon possessive pronoun is 'dii' which is identical to the determiner so to cut down use of possessive pronouns would be more true to the canon.

So who thinks this is a good idea? Can anybody see a major flaw in it? There's a good chance this is massively stupid but hopefully if I'm onto something and enough people are on-board with it we can get it noticed and made official.

by Foduiiz
April 20, 2014

Mine  Yours  His  Hers  Its  Theirs  Ours  Yours(pl.)

Recently I've been thinking about the significance of these words and if they're even necessary for the language to work. I think they could be ignored and instead be derived from context while instead using a possessive determiner (your  his  her  its  their  our  your (pl.))

Here are some examples:

The sword is her (the sword is hers)  ->  Zahkrii los ek (Zahkrii los ekah)

The honour is our (the honour is ours) ->  Zin los un (Zin los unah)

Victory is their (Victory is theirs) ->  Kongrah los niist (Kongrah los niistah)

 

Of course there will be situations where the difference will need to be clarified and in that case the possessive pronoun would be very useful but for a language designed to be brief and relying heavily on context it makes sense to do this in my mind.  Also don't forget that the only canon possessive pronoun is 'dii' which is identical to the determiner so to cut down use of possessive pronouns would be more true to the canon.

So who thinks this is a good idea? Can anybody see a major flaw in it? There's a good chance this is massively stupid but hopefully if I'm onto something and enough people are on-board with it we can get it noticed and made official.


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 20, 2014

Way ahead of you! If you check out the pronouns page, you'll see that possessive pronouns and determiners are listed as the same for the exact reasons you've stated above. The words "ekah", "unah", etc. have been deleted (or at least should be, if there are some listed let me know). Some of the older materials (particularly the old lesson book) still reference these pronouns though.

Going off of this, another thing to talk about would be to combine some of the subject and object pronouns. In the same way in English that "you" is both subject and object and "it" is both subject and object, we could have "zu'u" mean both "I" and "me", "Rok" mean both "he" and "him", etc.

by paarthurnax
April 20, 2014

Way ahead of you! If you check out the pronouns page, you'll see that possessive pronouns and determiners are listed as the same for the exact reasons you've stated above. The words "ekah", "unah", etc. have been deleted (or at least should be, if there are some listed let me know). Some of the older materials (particularly the old lesson book) still reference these pronouns though.

Going off of this, another thing to talk about would be to combine some of the subject and object pronouns. In the same way in English that "you" is both subject and object and "it" is both subject and object, we could have "zu'u" mean both "I" and "me", "Rok" mean both "he" and "him", etc.


Foduiiz
April 20, 2014

Oh that's great. I was going off of a screenshot I took of all the pronouns on the Learning Dovahzul PDF. It's things like this that make the Thu'um so... Logical. Cutting out unecessary grammar rules and shaving down sentence length by missing out insignificant words. It just makes sense! I love it.

by Foduiiz
April 20, 2014

Oh that's great. I was going off of a screenshot I took of all the pronouns on the Learning Dovahzul PDF. It's things like this that make the Thu'um so... Logical. Cutting out unecessary grammar rules and shaving down sentence length by missing out insignificant words. It just makes sense! I love it.


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 23, 2014

So then, thoughts on cutting zey, mok, and mek and using zu'u, rok, and rek instead?

by paarthurnax
April 23, 2014

So then, thoughts on cutting zey, mok, and mek and using zu'u, rok, and rek instead?


Foduiiz
April 24, 2014

I don't know. It seems to me that taking those words out might be a bit too much. Is there no dialogue in the game that shows subject pronouns where object pronouns would be expected? I spose, even if there wasn't it would still be closer to the canon to use it's own pronouns, right? There must surely be a situation where it doesn't work. Why else would all languages I known anything about use separate words for them? aaaah my brain hurts :S

by Foduiiz
April 24, 2014

I don't know. It seems to me that taking those words out might be a bit too much. Is there no dialogue in the game that shows subject pronouns where object pronouns would be expected? I spose, even if there wasn't it would still be closer to the canon to use it's own pronouns, right? There must surely be a situation where it doesn't work. Why else would all languages I known anything about use separate words for them? aaaah my brain hurts :S


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 24, 2014

There's no place in dialogue that I can find where you'd expect to see a Dovahzul word for "me", "him", "her", or "us". 

Here's a table of all the canon subject and object pronouns:

--Subject----Object--
Zu'u-
HiHi
Rok-
Rek-
NiiNii
NustNiin
Mu-

The ones we have are pretty much identical to English. "You" and "It" are the same as both the subject and object pronouns. The third person plural ("they") has its own object pronoun form ("them"). I expect if Bethesda had invented words for the rest of the table it would follow English.

Consider in English, the pronouns "you" and "it" are both the subject and the object pronouns. That doesn't cause any problems in English and I don't think it would cause any problems in Dovahzul if we made zu'urokrek, and mu both the subject and object pronouns. I think the question is do we fill in the rest of the table like English with invented words (which is the way it currently is), or canonize it as much as possible?

by paarthurnax
April 24, 2014

There's no place in dialogue that I can find where you'd expect to see a Dovahzul word for "me", "him", "her", or "us". 

Here's a table of all the canon subject and object pronouns:

--Subject----Object--
Zu'u-
HiHi
Rok-
Rek-
NiiNii
NustNiin
Mu-

The ones we have are pretty much identical to English. "You" and "It" are the same as both the subject and object pronouns. The third person plural ("they") has its own object pronoun form ("them"). I expect if Bethesda had invented words for the rest of the table it would follow English.

Consider in English, the pronouns "you" and "it" are both the subject and the object pronouns. That doesn't cause any problems in English and I don't think it would cause any problems in Dovahzul if we made zu'urokrek, and mu both the subject and object pronouns. I think the question is do we fill in the rest of the table like English with invented words (which is the way it currently is), or canonize it as much as possible?


Foduiiz
April 25, 2014

Does this topic need it's own thread?

by Foduiiz
April 25, 2014

Does this topic need it's own thread?


paarthurnax
Administrator
April 26, 2014

Sure, I'll make a new thread.

by paarthurnax
April 26, 2014

Sure, I'll make a new thread.

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